Huge explosion in Beirut

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Grumble
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Grumble » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:11 pm

The bellingcat article has been updated and includes a slide across comparison of before and after the blast.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... in-beirut/
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:33 pm

From there:
this shockwave appears to have reached Cyprus

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Martin Y » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:57 pm

Also from there, the video from someone on the roof of the building at the north end of the grain silo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJIA56 ... e=emb_logo

You can see that they're filming the initial fire, seemingly involving fireworks, happening in the north end of the same warehouse building which is eventually the source of the main detonation, as the crater is centred on what used to be its south end. There's a dramatic explosion at the end of that video, but it's certainly not the main event as they're only a few tens of metres away and the building they're standing on was entirely destroyed. So this seems to be an earlier explosion in the fireworks store and they must have got the hell out after that for the phone footage to have survived the final blast.

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Grumble
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Grumble » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm

Who the f.ck stores fireworks in the same warehouse as a shipload of ammonium nitrate? If it wasn’t the cause of such devastation that would almost be comical.
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by jimbob » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:32 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm
Who the f.ck stores fireworks in the same warehouse as a shipload of ammonium nitrate? If it wasn’t the cause of such devastation that would almost be comical.
That's astoundingly stupid.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by bmforre » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:36 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm
Who the f.ck stores fireworks in the same warehouse as a shipload of ammonium nitrate? If it wasn’t the cause of such devastation that would almost be comical.
Folks who have a warehouse for chemicals for rent?

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Grumble » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:45 pm

bmforre wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:36 pm
Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm
Who the f.ck stores fireworks in the same warehouse as a shipload of ammonium nitrate? If it wasn’t the cause of such devastation that would almost be comical.
Folks who have a warehouse for chemicals for rent?
Those folks should have some basic idea of how to store chemicals in that case.
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by bmforre » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:46 pm

jimbob wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:32 pm

That's astoundingly - or should that be "beancounterishly"? bm question - stupid.
Beancounters' curriculum is weak in chemistry.

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by jimbob » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:48 pm

Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by bmforre » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:00 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:45 pm
Edited by bmforre:

Folks who have a warehouse for chemicals for rent should have some basic idea of how to store chemicals ...
Such as Needed Volume is Width by Length by Height by (inverse)FillFactor?

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:39 pm

As recorded elsewhere on this forum, I got involved in a stupid online argument about ammonium nitrate and its ability to detonate in the pure state. It seems to be a common belief that since ammonium nitrate is an "oxidiser" it must have a fuel present to explode and no pointing at counter examples will convince them otherwise. Given the casual use and storage of ammonium nitrate in farming I have no doubt that this belief persists in health and safety officers working in storage facilities the world over.

I read somewhere* that the ease with which AM can be detonated is greatly improved by the inclusion of bubbles in the prills and that AM used in slurry explosives and ANFO is deliberately made to include bubbles, whereas fertiliser grade is made without.

*ETA. See Wiki on ANFO.
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by JQH » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:44 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm
Who the f.ck stores fireworks in the same warehouse as a shipload of ammonium nitrate? If it wasn’t the cause of such devastation that would almost be comical.
People who don't have to worry about Health and Safety red tape.
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:25 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:39 pm
As recorded elsewhere on this forum, I got involved in a stupid online argument about ammonium nitrate and its ability to detonate in the pure state. It seems to be a common belief that since ammonium nitrate is an "oxidiser" it must have a fuel present to explode and no pointing at counter examples will convince them otherwise. Given the casual use and storage of ammonium nitrate in farming I have no doubt that this belief persists in health and safety officers working in storage facilities the world over.

I read somewhere* that the ease with which AM can be detonated is greatly improved by the inclusion of bubbles in the prills and that AM used in slurry explosives and ANFO is deliberately made to include bubbles, whereas fertiliser grade is made without.

*ETA. See Wiki on ANFO.
Ammonium nitrate is much more difficult to detonate without being mixed with fuel.

Two things appear to have contributed to the Beirut explosion. Firstly, inadequate storage for six years may have allowed moisture to change the pirils into large blocks. Secondly, there was a serious fire in the warehouse involving what appear to be fireworks.

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by FlammableFlower » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:43 am

Trump managed to stick his oar in declaring it was a bomb... then he claimed various generals told him it probably was... then he claimed it was lots of explosive devices. Can someone find a basement for him to sit in out of the way?

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by AMS » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:44 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:43 am
Trump managed to stick his oar in declaring it was a bomb... then he claimed various generals told him it probably was... then he claimed it was lots of explosive devices. Can someone find a basement for him to sit in out of the way?
Beyond the media circus, does anyone with any influence actually pay attention to whatever crap Trump comes up with any more? For example, Macron is visiting Beirut today - I can't imagine he's taking Trump's comments particularly seriously.

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by PeteB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:20 pm

I was just wondering about the death toll, surely it must be in the thousands ?

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Grumble » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:48 pm

PeteB wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:20 pm
I was just wondering about the death toll, surely it must be in the thousands ?
Not necessarily with it being in the docks and half the blast radius being out to sea, but yes I expect it to go up significantly. Also I’d expect there to be a lot of “missing” where there simply isn’t anything left of the victims.
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Boustrophedon » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:52 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:25 am


Ammonium nitrate is much more difficult to detonate without being mixed with fuel.

Is it? ANFO requires a detonator and a primer of dynamite or similar.
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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by FredM » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:29 am

Good article on the Beirut explosion here.

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by bmforre » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:02 am

FredM wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:29 am
Good article on the Beirut explosion here.
Excellent. Thanks for posting this.

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:23 pm

Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:52 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:25 am


Ammonium nitrate is much more difficult to detonate without being mixed with fuel.

Is it? ANFO requires a detonator and a primer of dynamite or similar.
A detonator is only required if someone wants to have control over the time of the explosion. Which would be the case with a bomb or industrial use. Ammonium nitrate will also explode if its heated to a high temperature. So there have been ammonium nitrate explosions when it was burnt by an intense fire. For example, in Tianjin "An investigation found that stocks of flammable nitrocellulose - a chemical used in nail polish - had caught fire and spread to illegal stores of the fertiliser ammonium nitrate. The blasts that were triggered ripped through an industrial port area in the city, destroying buildings, shipping containers and thousands of new cars."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-37927158

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:32 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:57 pm
Also from there, the video from someone on the roof of the building at the north end of the grain silo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJIA56 ... e=emb_logo

You can see that they're filming the initial fire, seemingly involving fireworks, happening in the north end of the same warehouse building which is eventually the source of the main detonation, as the crater is centred on what used to be its south end. There's a dramatic explosion at the end of that video, but it's certainly not the main event as they're only a few tens of metres away and the building they're standing on was entirely destroyed. So this seems to be an earlier explosion in the fireworks store and they must have got the hell out after that for the phone footage to have survived the final blast.
Looks like some fireworks had been stored in the same warehouse for a decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -in-hangar

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:41 pm

bmforre wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:02 am
FredM wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:29 am
Good article on the Beirut explosion here.
Excellent. Thanks for posting this.
Yes, that was good.

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:43 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:23 pm
Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:52 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:25 am


Ammonium nitrate is much more difficult to detonate without being mixed with fuel.

Is it? ANFO requires a detonator and a primer of dynamite or similar.
A detonator is only required if someone wants to have control over the time of the explosion. Which would be the case with a bomb or industrial use. Ammonium nitrate will also explode if its heated to a high temperature. So there have been ammonium nitrate explosions when it was burnt by an intense fire. For example, in Tianjin "An investigation found that stocks of flammable nitrocellulose - a chemical used in nail polish - had caught fire and spread to illegal stores of the fertiliser ammonium nitrate. The blasts that were triggered ripped through an industrial port area in the city, destroying buildings, shipping containers and thousands of new cars."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-37927158
See here page 2.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... QUIVALENCY

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Re: Huge explosion in Beirut

Post by Boustrophedon » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:12 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:23 pm
Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:52 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:25 am


Ammonium nitrate is much more difficult to detonate without being mixed with fuel.

Is it? ANFO requires a detonator and a primer of dynamite or similar.
A detonator is only required if someone wants to have control over the time of the explosion. Which would be the case with a bomb or industrial use. Ammonium nitrate will also explode if its heated to a high temperature. So there have been ammonium nitrate explosions when it was burnt by an intense fire. For example, in Tianjin "An investigation found that stocks of flammable nitrocellulose - a chemical used in nail polish - had caught fire and spread to illegal stores of the fertiliser ammonium nitrate. The blasts that were triggered ripped through an industrial port area in the city, destroying buildings, shipping containers and thousands of new cars."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-37927158
The detonator is not the point, I should have said not just a detonator... The point was the pound or two of secondary explosive, like Semtex needed to reliably initiate a detonation in cold ANFO, which doesn't seem much less than say the dynamite being used to break AM up in Oppau. However I don't have access to the paper you link to. But the abstract doesn't seem to address that point.

Yes I agree that bar the Oppau explosion, in most of the accidents, there has been the possible addition of a fuel and lots of heat.
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