Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

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discovolante
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Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by discovolante » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:12 am

https://www.irishpost.com/news/family-g ... ave-191149
AN Irish family battling to overturn a court’s decision barring an inscription in Gaelic on their mother’s headstone have been granted permission to appeal the ruling.

The Coventry-based family of Westmeath woman Margaret Keane want “In ár gcroíthe go deo”, which means 'In our hearts forever', inscribed on her gravestone.

In May the Chancellor of the Diocese of Coventry, Stephen Eyre QC, ruled the phrase could not be allowed in the Irish language without a translation, as it could be deemed to be a “political statement” or some kind of “slogan”.

He also refused permission to appeal his judgment, forcing the family to apply for permission to appeal from the Arches Court of Canterbury.

The Arches Court has now granted permission to appeal the decision.
Anyone remember this case from last year? I hope they win.

(Also I'm quite happy that Mary-Rachel McCabe has been instructed to act for the family as the junior on this, she is a great young barrister)
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by malbui » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:17 am

If I ever get a headstone it's going to have something appallingly offensive in Irish engraved upon it.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by jaap » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:23 am

This is a diabolical situation. It seems tricky to defend the case by arguing it is not a political statement, when the mere fact that it was disallowed has turned it into a political statement against cultural repression.

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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:56 am

Despite being a member of the Catholic Church, Mrs Keane is buried in her local Church of England graveyard in the suburb of Ash Green in Coventry where she lived for most of her life.
I think I can see the problem here. Talking generally, there are long established diocesan and parish rules on headstones; including in some parishes the exact shape of the headstone and size and style of font engraved thereon. A very common stipulation is that apart from the name of the deceased, the inscription has to be from the bible. These rules are old and carved in stone. :D Every memorial requires a "faculty", which is a process of church planning permission to check that it meets these existing rules.

Being the established church, your parish church is obliged to hatch, match and despatch you and there is an obligation to bury you in the churchyard If the churchyard is "Open". However most graveyards being full and are now "closed", once that happens the duty of care for the churchyard can revert to the council, so there is some financial motivation to close the graveyard.

So my feelings are twofold: First I think that the Chancellor of the Diocese of Coventry, Stephen Eyre QC is wrong to mention politics, unless the local rules expressly forbids slogans. And the family should have checked the rules beforehand. Civic graveyards are available.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:18 am

The bereaved must follow the diocesan churchyard regulations

Memorials can only be introduced in line with the regulations or with a faculty. That means that the size, materials and wording of any memorial have to be within the parameters of the regulations

There is no automatic right to a memorial. Permission must be given before it is put in place

Additional items are not always permitted depending on the terms of your diocese’s regulations (e.g. photographs, toys, windmills, etc)
From here: https://www.churchofengland.org/more/ch ... -memorials
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Martin Y » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:23 am

(I'm entirely bewildered by the church vs state aspect here and have no grasp of what a consistory court is, but) is it a usual requirement for all non-English inscriptions on gravestones to be accompanied by a translation? I would be astounded to discover that was expected of Latin mottos, for example. Would it be demanded if the motto was in French, or Dutch?

It looks to me like a kneejerk anti-Irish suspicion that any Gaelic motto is probably a sly dig at the English*. Pragmatically, I would have thought that it should be enough that if the phrase got onto the stone then it was approved and if it was approved then it's benign. After all, just because a motto is accompanied by an English translation that does not tell the reader that the translation is accurate: you have to trust that whoever approved the motto could actually read it.

*Not so much by the approvers directly, but their assumption that others reading the stone would make that assumption.

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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 am

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:23 am
It looks to me like a kneejerk anti-Irish suspicion that any Gaelic motto is probably a sly dig at the English. P
Or kneejerk anti-English suspicion that it must be anti-Irish because it's the Anglican church. Whereas it is just the 500 year old Anglican Church being 500 year old dicks because they can.

Seriously they should have asked about the regulations beforehand.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am

Apparently there are welsh inscriptions in the same graveyard.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:01 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
Apparently there are welsh inscriptions in the same graveyard.
Then it does start to look a bit Anti-Irish or anti Catholic. Not that the Anglican church has a history of that or anything...
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Martin Y » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:16 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 am
Martin Y wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:23 am
It looks to me like a kneejerk anti-Irish suspicion that any Gaelic motto is probably a sly dig at the English. P
Or kneejerk anti-English suspicion that it must be anti-Irish because it's the Anglican church. Whereas it is just the 500 year old Anglican Church being 500 year old dicks because they can.

Seriously they should have asked about the regulations beforehand.
The ruling rather created an elephant trap for itself by saying that the motto might be political. That's what gave me the impression that rejection was specifically due to the use of the Irish language rather than non-English language. I might be mistaken that they would similarly refuse a Latin motto but I seriously doubt it.

Of course its their graveyard and they can impose whatever constraints they deem appropriate; the motto was not the main objection to the initial proposed design.

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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by discovolante » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:34 am

It will probably help if I link to the original judgment. It is a PDF so linking to the tweet that links to it (which was in turn linked to in the original article about the decision, which is linked to in the article in the OP, if anyone is wondering...)
https://twitter.com/DrFrancisYoung/stat ... 35424?s=20
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by discovolante » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:40 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:37 am
Martin Y wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:23 am
It looks to me like a kneejerk anti-Irish suspicion that any Gaelic motto is probably a sly dig at the English. P
Or kneejerk anti-English suspicion that it must be anti-Irish because it's the Anglican church. Whereas it is just the 500 year old Anglican Church being 500 year old dicks because they can.

Seriously they should have asked about the regulations beforehand.
The judgment specifically refers to 'passions and feelings connected with the use of Irish Gaelic' and then suggests that it might be interpreted as some sort of 'slogan'.

The judge distinguishes between the use of Welsh in other graveyards (not the same one - it is a reference to a different case about a similar issue) and the gravestone this family wants to use. His reasoning is in the judgment. I admit I know nothing about this subject so it is a bit premature to go gunning for them but the reasoning in the judgment deserves scrutiny at the very least imo.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:50 am

The head of the Church, Elizabeth II, has a motto in French with no translation.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:03 pm

Is a "Chancellor of the Diocese" implementing 'church law' or national law? I assume the C of E has some kind of historical right to determine by-laws for their own properties, but in cases where there's conflict with general UK rights to expression etc. would a UK court be able to intervene?
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Martin Y » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:21 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:03 pm
Is a "Chancellor of the Diocese" implementing 'church law' or national law? I assume the C of E has some kind of historical right to determine by-laws for their own properties, but in cases where there's conflict with general UK rights to expression etc. would a UK court be able to intervene?
A skim of wikipedia suggests this is a matter of who sets the rules for what kind of gravestone you can put up in a C of E graveyard (the diocese do) and who you can appeal to (an ecclesiastical court). Nothing to do with regular courts.

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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:40 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:21 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:03 pm
Is a "Chancellor of the Diocese" implementing 'church law' or national law? I assume the C of E has some kind of historical right to determine by-laws for their own properties, but in cases where there's conflict with general UK rights to expression etc. would a UK court be able to intervene?
A skim of wikipedia suggests this is a matter of who sets the rules for what kind of gravestone you can put up in a C of E graveyard (the diocese do) and who you can appeal to (an ecclesiastical court). Nothing to do with regular courts.
Well sure. But I can envisage certain kinds of restrictions that would probably fall afoul of discrimination legislation - I hope that the C of E couldn't refuse an inscription that, say, a man loved his husband or that commemorated somebody with a Muslim name or something (not saying that that would happen, just inventing some starker examples of unfair discrimination that could be perceived as political).
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Martin Y » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:48 pm

IDK, I just hope in this case the verdict is cake and not death.

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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by discovolante » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:58 pm

I'd imagine you're right BOAF, I would imagine the consistory court is required to take Convention rights into account in the same (or a similar) way as any other court, courts being public bodies under the Human Rights Act (there might be some legislative differences with regard to religion etc). So if that's the case a 'normal' court wouldn't have to deal with it directly, you could raise the arguments in front of the Arches Court.

Heavy caveat in that I know absolutely nothing about ecclesiastical law or the court system...
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by lpm » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:19 pm

The actual problem isn't words, but that the land and building have been stolen from us. They were paid for and phsyically built by our ancestors and they belong to us. The CoE falsely claims ownership and falsely exerts control. Their claim to ownership is built on fraud.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:29 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:19 pm
The actual problem isn't words, but that the land and building have been stolen from us. They were paid for and phsyically built by our ancestors and they belong to us. The CoE falsely claims ownership and falsely exerts control. Their claim to ownership is built on fraud.
This is true. See also the Crown Estates, the aristocracy, most National Trust properties, etc etc. You're not even allowed to walk (or stand, or sit) on 92% of land and 97% of the waterways in England.

There was an interesting interview with a right-to-roam campaigner in the Graun a few days ago, but I think the underlying issue is the theft of commons from everybody - that is, ownership and management - rather than just being allowed to stroll across a few fields.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:32 pm

discovolante wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:58 pm
I'd imagine you're right BOAF, I would imagine the consistory court is required to take Convention rights into account in the same (or a similar) way as any other court, courts being public bodies under the Human Rights Act (there might be some legislative differences with regard to religion etc). So if that's the case a 'normal' court wouldn't have to deal with it directly, you could raise the arguments in front of the Arches Court.

Heavy caveat in that I know absolutely nothing about ecclesiastical law or the court system...
Ah that's interesting, thanks disco. English law (and politics) is full of these weird arcane traditions - I'm not convinced that giving a wealthy landowner and employer the right to its own judicial system is particularly sensible, to be honest, but it's reassuring to know that they are basically under the national law at some point.
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by discovolante » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:00 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:32 pm
discovolante wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:58 pm
I'd imagine you're right BOAF, I would imagine the consistory court is required to take Convention rights into account in the same (or a similar) way as any other court, courts being public bodies under the Human Rights Act (there might be some legislative differences with regard to religion etc). So if that's the case a 'normal' court wouldn't have to deal with it directly, you could raise the arguments in front of the Arches Court.

Heavy caveat in that I know absolutely nothing about ecclesiastical law or the court system...
Ah that's interesting, thanks disco. English law (and politics) is full of these weird arcane traditions - I'm not convinced that giving a wealthy landowner and employer the right to its own judicial system is particularly sensible, to be honest, but it's reassuring to know that they are basically under the national law at some point.
Well I don't known the ins and outs at all, so feel free to take all of this with a pinch of salt :P out of interest I have just done a very quick Google and it looks like the highest appellate body is the Privy Council (in the civil and criminal courts of course it's the Supreme Court), which sort of takes it outside the direction realm of the church at that point at least.

Anyway let's see what happens!
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Gfamily » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:07 pm

For Civil weddings, the:
reading, music, words or performance which forms part of a ceremony of marriage celebrated on the premises must be secular in nature
;
so I'm not sure whether that's an infringement of people's rights to self expression etc.

My brother got away with it by having the God references in a Welsh hymn, so the person in charge didn't notice; or not enough to protest anyway!
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:48 pm
IDK, I just hope in this case the verdict is cake and not death.
I so want that on my gravestone. "Cake or Death."
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Re: Family wins right to appeal decision banning Gaelic inscription on mother's grave

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:13 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:19 pm
The actual problem isn't words, but that the land and building have been stolen from us. They were paid for and physically built by our ancestors and they belong to us. The CoE falsely claims ownership and falsely exerts control. Their claim to ownership is built on fraud.
Good luck with that.

Anyway most of them were stolen from the Catholic church by Henry VIII
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