Refugee / Migration

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PeteB
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Refugee / Migration

Post by PeteB » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:19 am

Read this monster 100 tweet thread about immigration into the EU by Ed Crawford, who has spent 5 years covering it. I found it quite thought provoking and interesting to hear the viewpoints of the refugees themselves, but he also asks difficult questions

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discovolante
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:45 am

Interesting, I'm 16 tweets in and already have some thoughts, so this is a good way to avoid getting any work done today :roll:
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by PeteB » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:28 am

I guess my main thought was how we cold make life in the countries they are migrating from less sh.t, and all Western countries need to increase the aid budget further and target it effectively

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:55 am

PeteB wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:28 am
I guess my main thought was how we cold make life in the countries they are migrating from less sh.t, and all Western countries need to increase the aid budget further and target it effectively
Yes i agree that the best way to 'keep' people in their home countries is to help make sure they don't actually want to leave in the first place.

I've read through the thread now and to be honest i found it largely misleading and unhelpful. There are enough nuggets of reality in it to make it seem convincing but a lot of the claims he makes and the conclusions he draws are overly simplistic and play on people's fears. I might reply properly later but for now here is a link to a thread from someone much more informed than me commenting on it: https://mobile.twitter.com/stand_for_al ... 9234550789
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by bjn » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:21 am

discovolante wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:55 am
PeteB wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:28 am
I guess my main thought was how we cold make life in the countries they are migrating from less sh.t, and all Western countries need to increase the aid budget further and target it effectively
Yes i agree that the best way to 'keep' people in their home countries is to help make sure they don't actually want to leave in the first place.

I've read through the thread now and to be honest i found it largely misleading and unhelpful. There are enough nuggets of reality in it to make it seem convincing but a lot of the claims he makes and the conclusions he draws are overly simplistic and play on people's fears. I might reply properly later but for now here is a link to a thread from someone much more informed than me commenting on it: https://mobile.twitter.com/stand_for_al ... 9234550789
To my metropolitan elite eyes, the original thread did seem to make some dodgy claims. Thanks for that.

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by PeteB » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:11 pm

Here's another criticising the legal claims on the original thread with her experiences

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by Sciolus » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:04 pm

discovolante wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:55 am
PeteB wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:28 am
I guess my main thought was how we cold make life in the countries they are migrating from less sh.t, and all Western countries need to increase the aid budget further and target it effectively
Yes i agree that the best way to 'keep' people in their home countries is to help make sure they don't actually want to leave in the first place.
Absolutely this. Maybe we could stop selling arms and instruments of oppression too. Curious that the most anti-migrant people tend to be the most anti-making-other-countries-less-sh.t people.

(Also: 100 item twitter thread? f.ck off and learn to communicate properly.)

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:08 pm

OK, so part of the reason I got annoyed with that thread was the fact that he has clearly constructed a narrative - which we all do but it is the way he has done it. He starts off with 'facts' about general demographics etc and claims to be impartial but racks up the fear as he goes, eventually focusing on crime, terrorism and plague. He doesn't spend an awful lot of time discussing what it must be like for the people who are already living among the criminals and terrorists. It's an extremely UK-centric take and while obviously the UK needs to consider its own place in this issue you can't do that properly without looking at the bigger picture and considering other perspectives.

It starts off with something I agree with - that people on 'both sides' over simplify the issue. My view is that terms like 'refugee' and 'asylum seeker' are legal terms (surprise surprise that I think that) and it isn't useful to view people who are placed inside or outside those categories as inherently moral or immoral. Not everyone who claims asylum is 'fleeing for their life' and not everyone who is an 'economic migrant' is either in desperate poverty or an evil outsider trying to leech off our wonderful and tolerant nation. I think that people on either side of this issue are often guilty of failing to put themselves in the shoes of the people they are talking about and gloss over the complexity of human nature, social pressures and decision making.

As an aside another reason why I don't really like being careless with the terminology used around migration is because of things like reference to 'climate refugees'. I've had discussions with people about climate change who have referred to 'climate refugees', even though as far as I'm aware in the UK at least there is no legal basis for being granted a right to stay in the UK on grounds of climate change. It's meant as a compassionate phrase but it's misleading and potentially harmful imo if we want to ensure people are protected. Not that I imagine most people escaping the consequences of climate change would come here anyway, but there we go.

Once you start lumping people into grounds you end up with tweets like:
38-If British Pakistani population can bring family over under reunification or by other means then that means 1.4 million people are could attempt to bring family over to the UK. Also what about the large numbers of refugees who could have similar reunification rights!
https://twitter.com/_edwardcrawford/sta ... 1603277824

I'm not really sure what he means by this. Has there been a change in policy that suddenly means that every British Pakistani can bring their entire family over unconditionally? And if there has, on what basis does he think that everyone would do that anyway? This and many other tweets rest on the assumption that all migrants ultimately want to come to the UK and that if we open the door even an inch more we'll have the rest of the world on our doorstep. The thread is totally lacking in statistics about global migration patterns and is selective in the stories he has chosen to tell.

He is also wrong and unrealistic about the process of claiming asylum:
8-There are ways for refugees to claim UK asylum from outside the UK. It is a lengthy procedure but it is designed to eliminate fraudulent asylum claims. I personally know Afghan interpreters who applied for UK asylum in another country. They were given asylum in the UK.
https://twitter.com/_edwardcrawford/sta ... 1603277824

I think the other thread I linked to addresses the legal aspects of that but it's absurd to imply that you are more likely to be 'genuine' if you claim from abroad. Aside from the obvious reasons of immediate danger etc. He may well be correct in saying that many people who claim asylum via the routes he is describing aren't 'genuine' refugees but it is perfectly lawful to claim asylum in that way and he also describes a number of people who have genuinely been persecuted, although he frames it in a way to suggest that it's problematic to allow them to claim. Aside from that, there are a lot of people in the UK who come for other reasons and claim asylum later. Sometimes it may be a strategy to stay in the country longer if e.g. you can't afford another visa, or no longer meet the criteria. But that is for the Home Office (and immigration tribunal) to decide. It doesn't automatically mean people's reasons for wanting to remain aren't 'genuine'. In around 2009/2010 I was volunteering for a charity that supported asylum seekers (in a role appropriate to my experience, don't worry). There were a number of people from Zimbabwe who already lived in the UK but were being required to return to Zimbabwe, because their visas had run out or whatever - sometimes some time before they actually claimed asylum. Although there were broadly some improvements in Zimbabwe in those years it wasn't exactly a model of political and financial stability so it's hardly surprising they didn't want to go back. Anyway I'm digressing a bit.
14-Extreme poverty is not an accepted reason for claiming asylum in Europe. Currently more than 1 billion people around the world live in extreme poverty.
https://twitter.com/_edwardcrawford/sta ... 1603277824

It does not follow that 1 billion people are going to try and claim asylum in the UK because of poverty. I'm not sure what he is trying to say with this and other similar tweets. But what he is not being is impartial even though that's what he claims at the beginning of the thread.

Anyway I had better get back to work, this is a massive subject and of course I'm biased as well, I probably know a bit more about UK asylum law and policy than the general population but the bar is pretty low and the little bit I do know is nowhere near enough to get the full picture because as the person who wrote the thread has indirectly highlighted, this is a global issue.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:56 pm

PeteB wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:11 pm
Here's another criticising the legal claims on the original thread with her experiences
She has started a full thread on this now, seems to be in progress: https://twitter.com/alisonkilling/statu ... 89858?s=20
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:23 am

So he's now refusing to discuss it with anyone on twitter and is blocking people who are correcting/disagreeing with him, great.

Anyway sorry PeteB, this isn't directed at you, it's one of those things that doesn't seem that unreasonable on the surface but he's not exactly dealing with the pushback very well.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by PeteB » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:32 pm

No, it was very informative, it was something I knew nothing about but I've learnt a lot more around it - thanks for your time

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by Stephanie » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:30 pm

discovolante wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:45 am
Interesting, I'm 16 tweets in and already have some thoughts, so this is a good way to avoid getting any work done today :roll:
He's also been published in The Spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... -you-think
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:44 am

Stephanie wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:30 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:45 am
Interesting, I'm 16 tweets in and already have some thoughts, so this is a good way to avoid getting any work done today :roll:
He's also been published in The Spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... -you-think
All you need to know really.


So yeah...Mercy Baguma. There will be a lot going on there that hasn't been (/can't be) reported. Not much seems to have been said about children's services' role in this yet given she had a baby. I don't know much about how children's services works in Scotland but I'm a bit worried that there is going to be a fair bit of buck-passing between Scotland and the Home Office given it's such a hot political topic.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:34 pm

f.ck Priti Patel. She's a terrible human being and remember Boris Johnson put her where she is.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by Vertigowooyay » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:34 pm

On Radio 4 this morning, Admiral Lord West said, of immigrants, 'we need to actually deal with them in a concentrated place, whether it's a camp or whatever...'

This is being said, out loud, in Britain, in 2020. Just, you know, floating the idea of concentration camps.
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discovolante
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:41 pm

Vertigowooyay wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:34 pm
On Radio 4 this morning, Admiral Lord West said, of immigrants, 'we need to actually deal with them in a concentrated place, whether it's a camp or whatever...'

This is being said, out loud, in Britain, in 2020. Just, you know, floating the idea of concentration camps.
Generously you could say he'd be pushing for something similar to Direct Provision in Ireland, which a lot of people are saying should be abolished and at the more extreme end of things are calling them 'today's Magdalen Laundries'...admittedly I'm not completely up to speed with all the finer details so I'm not sure how fair that is.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by sTeamTraen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:51 pm

If you did a secret (no possible comebacks) poll of white British (or other nationality with which you are familiar) people and asked if they would like to see migrant boats machine-gunned in the Channel (IIRC Katie Hopkins literally proposed doing this in the Mediterranean), what percentage do you think would say yes?

Or how about Muslims being systematically rounded up and gassed, if it could be done in a discreet way?

I have a horrible feeling that it would be quite a substantial number. There seem to be a lot of utter c.nts about.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by headshot » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:29 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:51 pm
If you did a secret (no possible comebacks) poll of white British (or other nationality with which you are familiar) people and asked if they would like to see migrant boats machine-gunned in the Channel (IIRC Katie Hopkins literally proposed doing this in the Mediterranean), what percentage do you think would say yes?

Or how about Muslims being systematically rounded up and gassed, if it could be done in a discreet way?

I have a horrible feeling that it would be quite a substantial number. There seem to be a lot of utter c.nts about.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:42 pm

Seriously, f.ck these people. The tweet is clearly designed to provoke exactly the replies that it got.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by jimbob » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:51 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:42 pm
Seriously, f.ck these people. The tweet is clearly designed to provoke exactly the replies that it got.
I remember hearing them on the Today programme, and really disliking them before I found out about 55 Tufton St and the dubious think tanks - many of which kept getting interviewed there.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:05 am

don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by jimbob » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:15 pm

Is that legal if they are refugees?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:44 pm

I couldn't find "rough sleeping" or "9.2.21" in the linked document, so not sure of the context - last time I heard something about this it was EU migrants rather than refugees?

Still massively massively c.nty, of course, and I'm sure they'd happily do it to refugees as well.
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Re: Refugee / Migration

Post by discovolante » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:56 pm

It's in there!

I don't think it is solely EU migrants, there is an explanatory memorandum here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... PRINT_.pdf

I think an immigration lawyer would need to explain it properly to be honest. It refers to people in the UK on a temporary basis and refugees are initially granted 'leave to remain' for five years. I don't know if there is a technical difference between 'leave to remain' and 'permission to stay' and I doubt (maybe wrongly!) that they would just be able to remove someone on that basis if their circumstances still met the threshold for being entitled to refugee status under the Convention, but if that's the case then you'd need to look at the mechanism - e.g. is it for that person to prove again that they're still entitled to refugee status? I'm not sure if that would be the case.

So yeah...I really don't know! And I should be reading other things not this so if someone else who knows what they're talking about writes about it, please do link to it in this thread...
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