Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:07 pm

From their page on HS2:
Why stop HS2?

HS2 is one of the largest and most damaging infrastructure projects our country has ever seen and is representative of everything we are seeking to change within this toxic system.

HS2 will not be carbon neutral for over 120 years.

Far from reducing flights HS2 is being lobbied for by 4 major airports who all state that it is essential for their plans for aviation expansion.

HS2 will require 3TWh/yr of electricity to run, that’s 67% of the electricity the entire UK rail network currently uses.

693 local wildlife sites, 33 sites of special scientific interest, 21 designated local nature reserves, 5 wildlife refuges of international importance and 108 ancient woodlands are all threatened by HS2. 9 major rivers will be diverted and 34 KM of the route goes directly through flood zones.

As for Birmingham, HS2 will increase rent prices in Birmingham, pushing low income earners away from the city centre. For the cost of HS2, Birmingham City Council’s budget could have been paid for 124 years. 195 QE size hospitals could be built for the cost of HS2.

The train tickets for HS2 will cost over £250, which means the regular people of Birmingham will not be able to afford the tickets. Only the elite will be able to afford the tickets.

HS2 requires 6-10 million litres of water a day to carry out the drilling of the chilterns tunnel, an estimate of 30 billion litres of water over three years.

Affinity Water, the water company which draws 60 % of their water from this source supplying 3.2 million people have told HS2 that they cannot meet their demand for water and in 2013 highlighted their concerns that the water supply could be entirely jeopardised by HS2 works.

In addition to the catastrophic environmental cost the human cost is huge. 888 homes and 985 businesses are being demolished to make way for the project. HS2 is by far the most expensive high speed railway the world has ever seen – £106 Billion according to the government, but independent experts have predicted up to £230 billion. Tickets will likely never be affordable for the average person on the street. Its projected users will need a salary over £60k/year and most of the economic benefit is heading to London, yet the average taxpayer will contribute over £4k to HS2’s construction.
There are multiple ancient woodland protection camps across the country https://hs2rebellion.earth/camp-locations/ which I haven't seen anyone talking about much, presumably because they don't annoy anyone.

ETA the point about electricity consumption is pretty weak. I have seen them say elsewhere (and it's mentioned in that Guardian article I posted) that electrifying the existing network would be a better use of the money from a carbon perspective.
Born at 356.32 ppm CO2 #ShowYourStripes

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:07 pm

ETA the point about electricity consumption is pretty weak. I have seen them say elsewhere (and it's mentioned in that Guardian article I posted) that electrifying the existing network would be a better use of the money from a carbon perspective.
...funnily enough, something that is going to happen anyway, whether HS2 happens or not. The NR interim strategy for this was released today.

Anyway, your posts are good and all, but I'm fully aware why they're protesting, just not why they'd choose the DfT building. They're not, ultimately, in charge of HS2, any more than Boris Johnson is. HS2 are.

ETA: The point about ticket prices is specious bollocks as well. No one knows yet what the ticket prices will be - nothing on that has been published. It also ignores that it's not just about HS2 itself - if it means the cited Brummie paupers can get a place on a regular train at rush hour, of which there will be more, because some of their lords and masters have f.cked off to an HS2 train, then that does still help them.

ETA2: Oooh, 888 homes demolished. Enormous. A full 0.0039% of the UK housing stock. I am literally incandescent with rage.

ETA3: "The most expensive and environmentally destructive infrastructure project in UK history." ? That's a brave statement.

I mean, far be it from me to suggest they've not put forward the most balanced assessment of the works that's around...
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monkey
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by monkey » Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:15 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
ETA: The point about ticket prices is specious bollocks as well. No one knows yet what the ticket prices will be - nothing on that has been published. It also ignores that it's not just about HS2 itself - if it means the cited Brummie paupers can get a place on a regular train at rush hour, of which there will be more, because some of their lords and masters have f.cked off to an HS2 train, then that does still help them.
I just looked it up. right now I could buy a ticket from Birmingham to London for about £200 pound, if I wanted to travel at any time and bought it at the station on the day of travel. I could spend an extra £100 and go first class though. But if I was doing it sensibly, it'd be about £30.

You could argue that train tickets already cost a similar amount, even though hardly anyone pays that price.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:27 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:07 pm

ETA the point about electricity consumption is pretty weak. I have seen them say elsewhere (and it's mentioned in that Guardian article I posted) that electrifying the existing network would be a better use of the money from a carbon perspective.
...funnily enough, something that is going to happen anyway, whether HS2 happens or not. The NR interim strategy for this was released today.
That's good news, and thanks for the link.

The benefits of HS2 to the train network are almost all dependent on secondary changes to the rest of the network, but so few of those were guaranteed in binding government plans that we were basically asked to take the government's word that, after promising £100 billion to a private company, they'd also put more money into the rest of the rail network. I'm sure you can imagine why some people were slightly skeptical about that, so it's good to hear that some of the other stuff is getting organised!
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
Anyway, your posts are good and all, but I'm fully aware why they're protesting, just not why they'd choose the DfT building. They're not, ultimately, in charge of HS2, any more than Boris Johnson is. HS2 are.
HS2 limited is wholly owned by the DfT and the project is entirely taxpayer funded, so I'd certainly hope the government body that owns HS2 has some influence over HS2.

If they're giving a blank cheque to a company they own but can't influence, that's also worthy of a protest IMHO.

Anyway, HS2 Ltd.'s head office is in Birmingham, and as discussed above very little outside the capital gets into the papers.
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
ETA: The point about ticket prices is specious bollocks as well. No one knows yet what the ticket prices will be - nothing on that has been published. It also ignores that it's not just about HS2 itself - if it means the cited Brummie paupers can get a place on a regular train at rush hour, of which there will be more, because some of their lords and masters have f.cked off to an HS2 train, then that does still help them.

ETA2: Oooh, 888 homes demolished. Enormous. A full 0.0039% of the UK housing stock. I am literally incandescent with rage.
Yeah, they should have stuck with hammering home the carbon and biodiversity points, which are solider and more straightforward. They're a bit all over the place and incoherent in general.
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
ETA3: "The most expensive and environmentally destructive infrastructure project in UK history." ? That's a brave statement.
It is, and I was trying to think of a more expensive and environmentally destructive infrastrucure project from UK history...so far without success.

But I bet there is one and I challenge the hive mind to name it![/quote]
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
I mean, far be it from me to suggest they've not put forward the most balanced assessment of the works that's around...
They haven't (and, TBF, I wouldn't necessarily expect the most balanced assessment to come from a campaign group any more than I'd expect it to come from the owners, which is why independent audits are important).

I do get the impression with XR that they're a bunch of amateurs whose enthusiasm exceeds their expertise.
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Woodchopper
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:50 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:27 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:37 pm
ETA3: "The most expensive and environmentally destructive infrastructure project in UK history." ? That's a brave statement.
It is, and I was trying to think of a more expensive and environmentally destructive infrastrucure project from UK history...so far without success.

But I bet there is one and I challenge the hive mind to name it!
[/quote]

Building the motorway network.

turgidprose
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by turgidprose » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:18 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:50 pm
Building the motorway network.
Not quite the same thing. Maybe building the M25 or M11 as they were quite discrete. Or you could compare building the motorway network to building the railway network.

secret squirrel
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by secret squirrel » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:33 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:18 am
...
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:53 pm
I don't know how we get from knowing, scientifically, what has to be done to actually doing it. I do get the impression from history that changes that radical (dare I say revolutionary) tend to come from direct action carried out by a minority, often using extreme measures, presumably because everyone with the power to make changes from within the current system is too invested in the current system and the benefits they get from it to actually want change.
Not really. In democratic societies social change has been achieved by getting a majority in parliament. The way to achieve that is to get at least a plurality of the electorate to support the cause. ETA That needs large mass organizations - eg parties or other with a large membership (eg rade Unions)...
Is this true? It seems like it's a matter of some academic debate to what extent public policy reflects the will of the majority of voters rather than the will of powerful interest groups, see e.g. this paper (link to pdf), and the various rebuttals to it outlined here.

Also, polls suggest a majority of the public are already concerned about climate change, and that high profile XR protests correlate with increased concern. If you combine this with the idea that direct action by a minority can influence policy by making it really inconvenient for the government to do anything else (e.g. the IRA, or more recently the yellow vest movement in France), I think there's a good argument that XR's strategy averages out to decent, even if it makes them unpopular in the process and may misfire sometimes.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:52 am

turgidprose wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:18 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:50 pm
Building the motorway network.
Not quite the same thing. Maybe building the M25 or M11 as they were quite discrete. Or you could compare building the motorway network to building the railway network.
You’re right. Over on the other thread I compared it to the M6.

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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by OneOffDave » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:54 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:01 pm

I can't find anything about a recent XR protest at the DHSC - are there any reliable sources for that? Obviously climate change is enormously prejudicial to health so there's probably a sensible angle, but it's not on their website or anybody else's website either AFAICT. There was a scientist arrested for talking outside DHSC on the 3rd, but they don't seem to have been glued to anything.
We had just sent colleagues over to collect some laptops from DHSC and they had to re-route to another entrance. I spoke to them when they got back into the office. I've known one of them for five years and they are a reliable individual, not prone to exaggeration. As I was on call I also got a notification from DHSC building security

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Martin Y
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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by Martin Y » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:36 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:01 pm
... flashy stunts do attract media coverage, but there's not much point in that if people don't get it.
I suppose when you're protesting against so many of the things we do, or at least the way in which we do them, it's hard to pick targets where the public will make the association you want and then think about it. From time to time I see work emails about some expected protest which means staff shouldn't try to use the main entrances to BBC Broadcasting House. Sometimes it's XR. But I don't know why they choose there.

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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by plodder » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:53 pm

Lower Thames crossing is significantly more damaging than HS2, is a new motorway and is specifically designed to open up a huge area of countryside for housing. Greens on HS2 are f.cking hopeless.

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Re: Lol (Extinction Rebellion edition)

Post by lpm » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:59 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:53 pm
Lower Thames crossing is significantly more damaging than HS2, is a new motorway and is specifically designed to open up a huge area of countryside for housing. Greens on HS2 are f.cking hopeless.
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