Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
Post Reply
User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:40 pm

Further to the discussion of ending support, and not just subsidies, for fossil fuels, erstwhile political party the Lib Dems have a sensible idea: Lib Dems propose ban on new listings of fossil fuel companies on LSE.
New listings of fossil fuel companies would be immediately banned on the London Stock Exchange as part of a proposal by the Liberal Democrats that the party says could help the UK become a leader in tackling the climate emergency.

Under the plan outlined to the Guardian by the Lib Dem leader, Ed Davey, another immediate policy would be to stop new bonds being issued in London to finance oil, coal or gas exploration.

Fossil fuel firms already listed in the UK would then have two years to produce a coherent plan about how they would reach net zero emissions by 2045, or risk being struck off the LSE.

In the longer term, pension funds would have to disinvest from fossil fuels by 2035, with all companies with fossil fuel assets removed from the exchange by 2045.

Davey, who on Friday marks the first anniversary of becoming the permanent leader of the Lib Dems, said such plans had the potential to achieve more than the UK’s own move to net zero emissions, or even its chairing of November’s Cop26 climate summit in Glasgow.

“The reality is that no matter how much governments spend, it’s going to be totally dwarfed by the amounts banks, private equity and hedge funds invest every day,” Davey said.

“So if you’re going to really take on climate change you’ve got to get that private capital to switch from dirty into clean. And this is a fundamental role for Britain in global leadership on climate change.”
It's the first I've heard from this Dave Eddey guy, but he makes a good point. The UK is a huge hitter in the world of finance generally, and carbon-intensive industries too. If you have money in a mainstream UK bank, or a pension from pretty much any normal fund, your money is funding the exacerbation of the climate crisis.

This proposal would be good for UK savers and pensioners, as their investments would no longer be exposed to the imminent carbon bubble when the market final realises all its unburnable carbon assets are stranded. And it would also be good for the world, by reducing the amount of funding available to continue f.cking up the atmosphere.

(I'm not sure how to get it from the Lib Dems to somewhere it could actually happen, though.)

XR are also calling for a ban on all new fossil fuel investments. Despite their sometimes questionable publicity tactics, they do have very sensible demands about the climate emergency. It's absolutely nuts that corporations are still allowed to invest in fossil fuels at a time when most people in the world want decarbonisation and a sustainable future.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

Millennie Al
Catbabel
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:10 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:26 pm
As interesting as the definition of a subsidy might be academically, I don't think it's hugely germane to this discussion of the climate emergency.
That depends on whether you want to have convincing arguments or ones that foster disagreement. If an argument uses a term such that it gets misunderstood, that will make people tend to disbelieve the whole argument.
Perhaps some sources are using the word 'subsidy' too broadly. If we replace it with "governments are providing $trillions in support to fossil fuels, via subsidies, tax breaks, in-kind assistance and other mechanisms," the idiocy of the status quo is still readily apparent. People need, and governments have committed to providing, a rapid reduction in fossil fuels. That means they need to end most forms of support as soon as possible, including but by no means limited to direct subsidies, and channel those resources into the transition to sustainability.
So what are these "direct subsidies".
If you're stuck down a deep hole, it would be stupid to continue paying the salary of the guy digging it. But you also wouldn't lend him your spade, cook him dinner, or give him a back rub. You'd demand he stopped, and probably beat him up.
It may turn out that the only way out is to dig steps in the side of the hole. Then you'd look pretty stupid for having made an enemy of the guy who is good at digging.
The climate emergency will continue to worsen until we shut down the fossil fuel industry. There is no sensible justification for continuing to support it by any means.
Unless you want widespread famine we need to be cautious. Current food production and distribution uses a lot of energy derived from fossil fuels.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

Millennie Al
Catbabel
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:28 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:40 pm
Further to the discussion of ending support, and not just subsidies, for fossil fuels, erstwhile political party the Lib Dems have a sensible idea: Lib Dems propose ban on new listings of fossil fuel companies on LSE.
New listings of fossil fuel companies would be immediately banned on the London Stock Exchange as part of a proposal by the Liberal Democrats that the party says could help the UK become a leader in tackling the climate emergency.
It's the first I've heard from this Dave Eddey guy, but he makes a good point.
It's complete nonsense. There are other stock exchanges and how many new fossil fuel companies are being listed anyway?
This proposal would be good for UK savers and pensioners, as their investments would no longer be exposed to the imminent carbon bubble when the market final realises all its unburnable carbon assets are stranded. And it would also be good for the world, by reducing the amount of funding available to continue f.cking up the atmosphere.
There is no reason why a UK pension fund would be restricted to investing in companies listed on the LSE. In fact, it would be a very poor one which did, since it would be in violation of the law requiring appropriate diversification of assets.
XR are also calling for a ban on all new fossil fuel investments. Despite their sometimes questionable publicity tactics, they do have very sensible demands about the climate emergency.
Their demands, according to https://rebellion.global/ are:
  1. Tell the truth.
  2. Act now
  3. Go beyond politics
Which are merely vague generalities.

Then in their FAQ (https://rebellion.global/frequently-asked-questions/) they say
we do not propose or endorse specific solutions ourselves
So they want something, but don't know (or are not prepared to say) exactly what it is.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 pm

Those interested in the variety of ongoing climate litigation cases might find this a useful resource http://climatecasechart.com/climate-change-litigation/
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:35 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:28 am
Their demands, according to https://rebellion.global/ are:
That's a global umbrella site - obviously they don't make specific demands there, as actions are determined by local grassroots organisers according to the jurisdiction they're operating in.

If you go to the XRUK site, you'll find the following:
This Rebellion we are making an immediate demand: Stop all new fossil fuel investment NOW!

It’s not a radical ask, in fact it’s the least the government could do to show they are serious about tackling the climate and ecological crisis ahead of hosting the COP26 UN Climate Talks in November.

And it’s not just Extinction Rebellion saying we have to stop pouring petrol on the fire. The International Energy Agency said in May this year that there must be no new oil, gas or coal development if the world is to reach net zero by 2050, and over 100 Nobel Laureates, including the Dalai Lama, have signed the Fossil Fuel Non-proliferation Treaty.

Before we begin to repair the damage, we need to stop making the crisis worse.
confirming what I said, which was also in the Guardian article I linked to.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

Millennie Al
Catbabel
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:11 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:35 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:28 am
Their demands, according to https://rebellion.global/ are:
That's a global umbrella site - obviously they don't make specific demands there, as actions are determined by local grassroots organisers according to the jurisdiction they're operating in.

If you go to the XRUK site, you'll find the following:
This Rebellion we are making an immediate demand: Stop all new fossil fuel investment NOW!
If that's such an obviously correct demand, why is it not endorsed by XR global? Do they think that some other part of XR might disagree? Or is it actually that they're a bunch of well-meaning, ineffective fools? In support of the latter, see: https://extinctionrebellion.uk/the-truth/about-us/ item 6:
6. we welcome everyone and every part of everyone
...
Discriminatory behaviour, language or behaviour that exhibits racial domination, sexism, anti-semitism, islamophobia, homophobia, ableism, class discrimination, prejudice around age and all other forms of oppression including abusive language towards others, either during an action or elsewhere, is not accepted whether physically or online.
So every part of everyone is accepted, except for the bits they don't like. Typical facile slonganeering. Why say something as stupid as "we welcome everyone and every part of everyone" in a headline only to admit it's not true a short while later?

So they're a bunch of useless fools who don't know what they want and don't even know who they are.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

User avatar
Aitch
Snowbonk
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 am

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Aitch » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:20 am

But at least one of them is good at slapping up posters all over this area. ;)

Hmm, we haven't had any new ones for a while. I hope he/she/it/they haven't been hit by Covid.
Some people call me strange.
I prefer unconventional.
But I'm willing to compromise and accept eccentric
.

User avatar
discovolante
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by discovolante » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:09 am

Is anyone planning to go to any COP26 demos or is that too hippyish and counterproductive?
I'M HEATING STREAKY BACON IN A TROUSER PRESS

User avatar
discovolante
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by discovolante » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:23 am

discovolante wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:09 am
Is anyone planning to go to any COP26 demos or is that too hippyish and counterproductive?
C'mon, they'll probably be as effective as the anti Brexit ones ;)
I'M HEATING STREAKY BACON IN A TROUSER PRESS

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:09 pm

discovolante wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:23 am
discovolante wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:09 am
Is anyone planning to go to any COP26 demos or is that too hippyish and counterproductive?
C'mon, they'll probably be as effective as the anti Brexit ones ;)
Yeah. I wouldn't call them hippyish (concern about the climate emergency is totally mainstream now, and one of the few issues uniting voters across the political spectrum), nor counter-productive despite the media's best efforts to paint environmental activists as fringe weirdoes.

But I'm not sure what the point is in these kinds of demos. At COP26, the evidence is overwhelming that there's a real problem, that voters want it solved, and that governments in developing countries want it solved. It's not clear to me how a bunch of people turning up with signs really adds much.

Direct action can be useful, of course, but it needs cleverly-chosen targets and a strategy to cause genuine disadvantage to problematic actors. Standing behind a police cordon at an event where governments are already talking about the issue doesn't seem likely to do all that much.

That said, if there's one locally in Lisbon I might go, if only to network with local groups and find out what other useful stuff is going on.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Looking forward to seeing what comes out of the Labour conference https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... conference

Throwing out a grassroots motion for being "too broad" isn't a good start, when broad joined-up responses are absolutely what's needed. The example given - affordable rural broadband - would obviously be very useful for reducing the kind of commuting that's most difficult to shift to mass transit. It's a very sensible green policy with loads of added value in other areas Labour cares about, but it seems like they're more concerned about avoiding the stench of Corbynism.

Hopefully the Starmer central command will come up with ideas that are equivalently sensible and transformative, as well as the obvious basic stuff about insulation and energy generation. Fingers crossed. The public conversation with Sanders is a good start, as he's managed to get Biden on board with a bunch of good green ideas.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
basementer
Dorkwood
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm
Location: Aotearoa
Contact:

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by basementer » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:49 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:15 pm
Looking forward to seeing what comes out of the Labour conference https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... conference

Throwing out a grassroots motion for being "too broad" isn't a good start, when broad joined-up responses are absolutely what's needed. The example given - affordable rural broadband - would obviously be very useful for reducing the kind of commuting that's most difficult to shift to mass transit. It's a very sensible green policy with loads of added value in other areas Labour cares about, but it seems like they're more concerned about avoiding the stench of Corbynism.

Hopefully the Starmer central command will come up with ideas that are equivalently sensible and transformative, as well as the obvious basic stuff about insulation and energy generation. Fingers crossed. The public conversation with Sanders is a good start, as he's managed to get Biden on board with a bunch of good green ideas.
You fibber. The article doesn't mention that, it says universal free broadband, which would be a daunting infrastructure project.
Money is just a substitute for luck anyway. - Tom Siddell

User avatar
dyqik
Light of Blast
Posts: 4194
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by dyqik » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:01 pm

basementer wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:49 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:15 pm
Looking forward to seeing what comes out of the Labour conference https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... conference

Throwing out a grassroots motion for being "too broad" isn't a good start, when broad joined-up responses are absolutely what's needed. The example given - affordable rural broadband - would obviously be very useful for reducing the kind of commuting that's most difficult to shift to mass transit. It's a very sensible green policy with loads of added value in other areas Labour cares about, but it seems like they're more concerned about avoiding the stench of Corbynism.

Hopefully the Starmer central command will come up with ideas that are equivalently sensible and transformative, as well as the obvious basic stuff about insulation and energy generation. Fingers crossed. The public conversation with Sanders is a good start, as he's managed to get Biden on board with a bunch of good green ideas.
You fibber. The article doesn't mention that, it says universal free broadband, which would be a daunting infrastructure project.
It's the same amount of infrastructure, tbh. Rural broadband is pretty much all that's missing from broadband supply generally.

Making it free is a different question, more to do with who pays to keep the infrastructure running. That's not obviously stupid either. The government pays for physical communication (roads etc.) out of general taxation so that people can get to work and receive physical products, so paying for digital communication so people can work remotely and receive digital products isn't completely bizarre.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:20 am

It's a while since I read the plan in detail (2019 presumably) but IIRC the emphasis was on building new internet pipes to underserved areas, which the private sector is failing to do. I don't see why they'd need to build new internet pipes to places that already have them. And if the government's going to build essential infrastructure, privatisation doesn't seem to have good results (water in the UK, or at least England, is currently a literal shitshow).

But point taken - the rejected plan was to build rural broadband and make it free. Maybe Starmer will have a plan to build it and make it not free.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6861
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Tackling the Climate Emergency:Economic and judicial instruments

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:33 am

Client Earth's summit is next week.
https://www.clientearth.org/latest/late ... ister-now/

They're doing a really impressive job of using existing legislation to ensure governments enforce evidence-based sustainable policy, and setting powerful precedents when they win. Really interesting range of experts and topics too.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

Post Reply