Page 12 of 14
Re: Railways
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:10 pm
by IvanV
shpalman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:37 pm
Fishnut wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:28 pm
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I cba to read through all the previous pages on this thread.
Can someone explain to me the funding differences that means that UK passengers are seeing increases of
5.9% to their tickets while Germany can offer an unlimited ticket for all public transport for
€49/month?
If I want something equivalent but just for Lombardy it's €110 per month or €1059 for the whole year (although I'd get a discount via my job for the annual one).
The German annual ticket isn't valid on intercity trains. I think more trains would be classed as some superior kind of service on the continent than here - generally anything much better than a local all stations has some superior classification. Though with a London All Zones travelcard now approaching the level of £3000 for a year, there is still a question to be asked.
Re: Railways
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:42 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
Fishnut wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:28 pm
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I cba to read through all the previous pages on this thread.
Can someone explain to me the funding differences that means that UK passengers are seeing increases of
5.9% to their tickets while Germany can offer an unlimited ticket for all public transport for
€49/month?
One of the bigger answers is "subsidies". Not the whole part of the pie but certainly much of the chicken and a little of the ham. England's railways, governed by the DfT, have the subsidies set for them based on the principle that passengers should pay more for their tickets than the taxpayer, and that railways should be as minimally impactful on the public finances as possible. Scotland's railways, governed by TfS, are somewhat tied up but align more with the European model of seeing public transport as a public good, and therefore something that the Government should pump more subsidy into, to encourage its use.
In short, ideology means that subsidies in England are lower, and ticket prices are higher.
On top of that, there's also quite a lot of pre-pandemic hangover going on. Prior to the lockdowns, our railways were pretty full, and the main lever that the government had (and still has) to control demand was ticket prices. Demand rarely dropped anywhere when ticket prices went up, so up they went. Obviously, since the pandemic railways now have an extra competitor - working at home, and it's super popular. This new-found, popular preparedness to stay at home rather than travel seemed to confound the economic geniuses in the Treasury (who are basically DfT's bullies), such that when Jan 2021 came along, they responded to the historic drop in demand by putting prices up. And then did the same thing a year later. Unsurprisingly, this didn't help more people use trains. It was only last summer when Grant Shapps realised that maybe discounting some fares would be useful?
Obviously it didn't last. Nothing ever does.
Re: Railways
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:49 pm
by Fishnut
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:42 pm
Fishnut wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:28 pm
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I cba to read through all the previous pages on this thread.
Can someone explain to me the funding differences that means that UK passengers are seeing increases of
5.9% to their tickets while Germany can offer an unlimited ticket for all public transport for
€49/month?
One of the bigger answers is "subsidies". Not the whole part of the pie but certainly much of the chicken and a little of the ham. England's railways, governed by the DfT, have the subsidies set for them based on the principle that passengers should pay more for their tickets than the taxpayer, and that railways should be as minimally impactful on the public finances as possible. Scotland's railways, governed by TfS, are somewhat tied up but align more with the European model of seeing public transport as a public good, and therefore something that the Government should pump more subsidy into, to encourage its use.
In short, ideology means that subsidies in England are lower, and ticket prices are higher.
On top of that, there's also quite a lot of pre-pandemic hangover going on. Prior to the lockdowns, our railways were pretty full, and the main lever that the government had (and still has) to control demand was ticket prices. Demand rarely dropped anywhere when ticket prices went up, so up they went. Obviously, since the pandemic railways now have an extra competitor - working at home, and it's super popular. This new-found, popular preparedness to stay at home rather than travel seemed to confound the economic geniuses in the Treasury (who are basically DfT's bullies), such that when Jan 2021 came along, they responded to the historic drop in demand by putting prices up. And then did the same thing a year later. Unsurprisingly, this didn't help more people use trains. It was only last summer when Grant Shapps realised that maybe discounting some fares would be useful?
Obviously it didn't last. Nothing ever does.
Thank you.
So are European trains as expensive to run as British ones overall? Or are we doing things in a more expensive way?
Re: Railways
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:21 pm
by IvanV
Fishnut wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:49 pm
So are European trains as expensive to run as British ones overall? Or are we doing things in a more expensive way?
There's a classic benchmarking study (which I can no longer locate) from around about 8-10 years ago or something, that split the railway into three parts, and compared their efficiency across Europe, the results being:
Operations (driving trains, operating stations, etc) - Britain efficient as anyone else
Trains (cost of building and maintaining trains, hiring them out to operators) - Britain expensive - our trains are expensive to build because they have to satisfy unique requirements and difficult approval procedures, (despite the aim of European interoperability to remove those differences), and then we hire them out to train operating companies in a financially expensive way
Fixed Infrastructure (maintaining and building the tracks, stations, signals, overhead lines, etc) - Britain very expensive
Typically such benchmarking adjusts for input cost differences. So if labour is more expensive in one country for another, they will adjust for that in deciding where is efficient. This is a little problematic, because a country with high labour costs might use more automation in consequence.
Re: Railways
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:45 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
I remember that report, but also can't remember what it was called. But yes, that was the thrust. And it's only got more expensive since then as well. Almost no one really understands why.
Re: Railways
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:49 pm
by TimW
TimW wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:27 am
I was just reading the MP for Eastleigh spouting on about how the new Great British Railways HQ, which is now open for bids, should be there and not Southampton. Has he not heard of "levelling up"?
So which
Tory-held Red Wall seat will it be in?
...
Derby.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-65020846
Re: Railways
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:23 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
What amuses me about this is that they've waited so long to announce it, some of the press have finally picked up that it's fairly meaningless. Hardly anyone will work there.
Amanda Solloway, Conservative MP for Derby North, said the decision was "fantastic news".
Ms Solloway, who campaigned wearing a T-shirt with a QR code on with more details on Derby's bid, added it showcased the "city at its best".
"This decision will bring jobs, investment, and the start of a new era for Britain's railways," she said.
Hmm. It'll bring a few jobs, and a bit of investment, and I'd say it's more the start of a new phase than a new era. But hey. Well done you.
Chris Lee, a former train driver from the city, said: "It's just another office block isn't it; it's not making trains any better, any more comfortable, any bigger. An office block won't make any difference to that.
"It needs to be run by railway people, people who know about railways, and it needs managing better and running as a public service, by the people for the people, not for the profits of shareholders."
Chris speaks wisely.
Re: Railways
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:59 pm
by Aitch
Bit of a frivolous question.
The old Iron Bridge in Staines is no more. And now the council have arranged for the brickwork to be decorated, by someone called Nathan Evans (
ne-illustration on Twitter). It looks... OK.
- 20131-ces.jpg (230.26 KiB) Viewed 2124 times
(They've had both sides done, but people kept getting in the way of my attempts to get a clear pic of the other side
)
However, the bridge belongs, I assume, to NR (or whatever their current name is) and the decoration was arranged by the council. I guess they must have got NR's permission? After how long a negotiation?
Re: Railways
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:41 pm
by Lew Dolby
Just had a publicity thingy from our Lib-Dem MP - she who overthrew the sizeable Tory majority after the Owen Paterson debacle - she's campaigning to get Oswestry reconnected to the main Shrewsbury-Chester line at Gobowen.
FFS - it would be a single station branch: it crosses the A5 by a levelcross close to a roundabout and it's 2 miles.
Gobowen is easy by bus or taxi and there's a free carpark at the station. Chaos for a route next to no-one would use.
[maybe I should be in the rant thread]
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:56 am
by IvanV
Reports of leaks of a study within Network Rail saying that it is not financially sustainable, and does not have enough money to maintain and renew the network in its present condition. So without major cost reductions, or increased funding, or some combination, then bits of the network will rot and eventually have to be closed or have their capacity reduced, as happened during the Thatcher era when BR reduced the capacity of the network while underfunded.
Meanwhile, huge amounts of money are being spent on extending the network, when we can't maintain what we have.
It's not actually a secret. It is perfectly obvious from Network Rail's publication of its
Target 190plus research programme. This is based upon an estimate that the maintenance and renewal of the signalling system is not financially sustainable unless they succeed in reducing the whole-life cost (in some price base) of the signalling system from £420k per Signal Equivalent Unit (SEU) to £190k. Yes, that's a reduction of over 50%. But it would still be more costly than on the continent, so ought to be entirely feasible.
I have mentioned this Target 190plus programme before, though without a link. EPD has confirmed that similar projects would make sense in other departments of NR - track, electrification, civils - but there don't seem to be any.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:28 am
by bjn
Why are some things stupidly expensive in the UK? I get that buying land in the middle of London to do train things won’t be cheap, but replacing a signal is swapping kit out, so the costs really should be equivalent to whoever else is using similar kit. Who is creaming off all that excess cost and how is it being justified?
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:33 pm
by Woodchopper
bjn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:28 am
Why are some things stupidly expensive in the UK? I get that buying land in the middle of London to do train things won’t be cheap, but replacing a signal is swapping kit out, so the costs really should be equivalent to whoever else is using similar kit. Who is creaming off all that excess cost and how is it being justified?
As far as I know, one thing that isn't different is the companies that produce the kit, as firms like Siemens, Alstom or Hitachi operate across Europe. That doesn't mean that they are making excessive profits. In some sectors the costs are due to unnecessary layers of contractors and sub-contractors. I don't know if this applies to rail though.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:11 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
Aitch wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:59 pm
Bit of a frivolous question.
The old Iron Bridge in Staines is no more. And now the council have arranged for the brickwork to be decorated, by someone called Nathan Evans (
ne-illustration on Twitter). It looks... OK.
20131-ces.jpg
(They've had both sides done, but people kept getting in the way of my attempts to get a clear pic of the other side
)
However, the bridge belongs, I assume, to NR (or whatever their current name is) and the decoration was arranged by the council. I guess they must have got NR's permission? After how long a negotiation?
Can't imagine it would've been much of a negotiation tbh - might even have been prompted by NR. The council will have spoken to NR's Southern Region, probably the head of structures, and gone from there. It'll mean (a) a nice thing for tourists to Staines (lol) to look at, (b) it reduces the chances of graffiti, (c) it very, very, very slightly protects the masonry. Lowers costs overall, everyone's a winner.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:23 pm
by IvanV
Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:33 pm
bjn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:28 am
Why are some things stupidly expensive in the UK? I get that buying land in the middle of London to do train things won’t be cheap, but replacing a signal is swapping kit out, so the costs really should be equivalent to whoever else is using similar kit. Who is creaming off all that excess cost and how is it being justified?
As far as I know, one thing that isn't different is the companies that produce the kit, as firms like Siemens, Alstom or Hitachi operate across Europe. That doesn't mean that they are making excessive profits. In some sectors the costs are due to unnecessary layers of contractors and sub-contractors. I don't know if this applies to rail though.
I think the main problem is more along the lines of what Monty Python describes,
"Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two-level effect with a little path running down the middle". And sometimes it seems like they have to cut down a tree with a herring, too. Despite the aims of European interoperability to uniformise things, Britain has basically refused to back down on very many of our own specific standards. And there are also certain things that haven't been uniformised, where Britain imposes standards. And the approval procedures here are a nightmare. So you can't just put in what they put in Germany or Spain, there's a whole bunch of other stuff, which is just far worse to navigate here than anywhere else.
And then, often, there is another shrubbery it is beside, typically the older railway that the new replacement bit has to interface with, and that often creates a whole bunch of really difficult problems in getting them to work alongside. Why those tend to be so much worse here than on the continent I'm not sure. When you look at the London Underground Subsurface Lines resignalling project (Circle, District, Met, HamCity), to illustrate it isn't a Network Rail specific issue, it's been a nightmare with contractors giving up and the project started over again. And when it finally terminates in about 2025 according to the latest projections, it will be about 10 years late.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:24 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
IvanV wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:56 am
Reports of leaks of a study within Network Rail saying that it is not financially sustainable, and does not have enough money to maintain and renew the network in its present condition. So without major cost reductions, or increased funding, or some combination, then bits of the network will rot and eventually have to be closed or have their capacity reduced, as happened during the Thatcher era when BR reduced the capacity of the network while underfunded.
Meanwhile, huge amounts of money are being spent on extending the network, when we can't maintain what we have.
It's not actually a secret. It is perfectly obvious from Network Rail's publication of its
Target 190plus research programme. This is based upon an estimate that the maintenance and renewal of the signalling system is not financially sustainable unless they succeed in reducing the whole-life cost (in some price base) of the signalling system from £420k per Signal Equivalent Unit (SEU) to £190k. Yes, that's a reduction of over 50%. But it would still be more costly than on the continent, so ought to be entirely feasible.
I have mentioned this Target 190plus programme before, though without a link. EPD has confirmed that similar projects would make sense in other departments of NR - track, electrification, civils - but there don't seem to be any.
Speaking to colleagues some time ago, I believe the person heading up T190+ may have moved roles within NR, and the programme is somewhat rudderless. It's a great idea, but the entire industry (pretty much) is currently in the "running around with everything on fire" stage, thanks in most part to the Treasury, so I'm not sure that heads are brilliantly focused on the right things.
In terms of why things are more expensive here, I never saw NR put sufficient energy into trying to answer that question when I was there. They're still not very interested. The mind of NR execs is as the mind of the Treasury - f.ck the long-term, let's deal with the problems we're facing right now and balls to the lot of you. Probably the answer is some combination of the safety standards we have here; the fact that many GB rail assets are bespoke rather than standardised; our industry has dissuaded a lot of competition; with signalling and telecoms systems there's plenty of supplier lock-in; NR is sh.t at negotiating; DfT/HMT keep interfering when they need to STFU and FTFO, so scope changes; Brexit; etc.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:14 pm
by nekomatic
Not in answer to the above question, but I just came across
this video and
the interactive website used to create it which compare a number of big European rail projects on a variety of metrics. Leading among other things to the conclusion that on the basis of construction cost per daily passenger kilometre, HS2 is considerably cheaper than some other long distance high speed projects.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:36 pm
by IvanV
nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:14 pm
Not in answer to the above question, but I just came across
this video and
the interactive website used to create it which compare a number of big European rail projects on a variety of metrics. Leading among other things to the conclusion that on the basis of construction cost per daily passenger kilometre, HS2 is considerably cheaper than some other long distance high speed projects.
The three that it is cheaper than, per daily pax-km, are:
Gotthard-Basistunnel
Brennerbasistunnel, which are both long tunnels deep under the Alps, and unsurprisingly very expensive.
Rail Baltica - Warsaw to Tallinn. It is expensive per daily pax-km because the demand level on it would be low in comparison with any other high speed railway. Total cost currently estimated at around €6bn for 870km of railway within the Baltic States, excluding the section within Poland. So in terms of actual track built, hugely cheaper than HS2. Intended also to have substantial freight usage, at rather lower speed.
Otherwise it is more expensive on any metric than anything else which is a sensible comparator within Europe.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:40 pm
by shpalman
Italian rail seems to have been in chaos all day today due to a freight train derailing near Florence last night, getting in the way of the high speed lines.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:15 pm
by bjn
shpalman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:40 pm
Italian rail seems to have been in chaos all day today due to a freight train derailing near Florence last night, getting in the way of the high speed lines.
The 12:25 from Chiswick to Waterloo was (very) delayed due to train failure today, so I had to wait for the 12:59 instead. Fortunately only local chaos.
Re: Railways
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:23 pm
by shpalman
shpalman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:40 pm
Italian rail seems to have been in chaos all day today due to a freight train derailing near Florence last night [about 3am], getting in the way of the high speed lines.
Actually the issue was that it brought down the power lines.
Re: Railways
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:07 pm
by Grumble
shpalman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:23 pm
shpalman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:40 pm
Italian rail seems to have been in chaos all day today due to a freight train derailing near Florence last night [about 3am], getting in the way of the high speed lines.
Actually the issue was that it brought down the power lines.
Probably the cheap construction
Re: Railways
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:38 am
by El Pollo Diablo
Dewirements happen everywhere there's overhead lines, but are more common either where the design or construction wasn't good, or where the maintenance & tensioning hasn't been happening properly. Sometimes it's fine and the fault of the train pantograph, though.
Re: Railways
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:22 am
by Grumble
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:38 am
Dewirements happen everywhere there's overhead lines, but are more common either where the design or construction wasn't good, or where the maintenance & tensioning hasn't been happening properly. Sometimes it's fine and the fault of the train pantograph, though.
I was on a train once where one of the supporting pieces for the overhead wires came loose and smashed through the window on the other side of the seat I was sat on. Quite a scary moment. Thankfully no one got hit by the metal rod but a lady on the other side of the carriage was absolutely showered by broken glass.
Re: Railways
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:20 am
by shpalman
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:38 am
Dewirements happen everywhere there's overhead lines, but are more common either where the design or construction wasn't good, or where the maintenance & tensioning hasn't been happening properly. Sometimes it's fine and the fault of the train pantograph, though.
I imagine that dewirements happen everywhere that a container on a derailed wagon takes out the gantry holding the wires up.
- 070731709-9444b9e0-ead7-4337-8448-3623ecebfb9a.jpg (361.59 KiB) Viewed 1801 times
https://www.ilpost.it/2023/04/21/treno- ... o-firenze/
https://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca ... 302k.shtml
Re: Railways
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:00 am
by El Pollo Diablo
Well yeah okay sometimes that happens too