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Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:31 am
by Brightonian
Having lived for most of my life south of the Thames, I tend to think of third rail systems as the natural state of affairs, so have never really understood why people in foreign parts (France, Germany, Northamptonshire etc.) go for these overhead lines which seem to fail a lot more in my anecdotal experience. Or do they?

Just asked ChatGPT which is one better, but got an inconclusive response:
Brightonian wrote: On electrified railways, are failures of overhead lines proportionally more common than failures of third rails?
Someone in the ChatGPT office in Manila wrote: The answer to this question may depend on various factors such as the design of the electrified railway system, the environmental conditions in which it operates, and the maintenance practices employed. However, in general, failures of overhead lines may be more common than failures of third rails due to the following reasons:

Exposure to environmental conditions: Overhead lines are exposed to environmental conditions such as wind, rain, and snow, which can cause them to become damaged or disconnected. Third rails, on the other hand, are typically located closer to the ground and are less exposed to such conditions.

Greater length: Overhead lines are typically longer than third rails, and therefore have a higher likelihood of experiencing failures due to their length.

Maintenance requirements: Overhead lines require more frequent maintenance than third rails, which can increase the likelihood of failures if maintenance is not conducted regularly.

However, it's worth noting that both overhead lines and third rails can experience failures, and the specific factors that influence their failure rates may vary based on the specific system design and operating conditions.


ChatGPT Mar 23 Version. Free Research Preview. ChatGPT may produce inaccurate information about people, places, or facts.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:34 am
by IvanV
Brightonian wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:31 am
Having lived for most of my life south of the Thames, I tend to think of third rail systems as the natural state of affairs, so have never really understood why people in foreign parts (France, Germany, Northamptonshire etc.) go for these overhead lines which seem to fail a lot more in my anecdotal experience. Or do they?

Just asked ChatGPT which is one better, but got an inconclusive response:
Brightonian wrote: On electrified railways, are failures of overhead lines proportionally more common than failures of third rails?
Someone in the ChatGPT office in Manila wrote: The answer to this question may depend on various factors such as the design of the electrified railway system, the environmental conditions in which it operates, and the maintenance practices employed. However, in general, failures of overhead lines may be more common than failures of third rails due to the following reasons:

Exposure to environmental conditions: Overhead lines are exposed to environmental conditions such as wind, rain, and snow, which can cause them to become damaged or disconnected. Third rails, on the other hand, are typically located closer to the ground and are less exposed to such conditions.

Greater length: Overhead lines are typically longer than third rails, and therefore have a higher likelihood of experiencing failures due to their length.

Maintenance requirements: Overhead lines require more frequent maintenance than third rails, which can increase the likelihood of failures if maintenance is not conducted regularly.

However, it's worth noting that both overhead lines and third rails can experience failures, and the specific factors that influence their failure rates may vary based on the specific system design and operating conditions.


ChatGPT Mar 23 Version. Free Research Preview. ChatGPT may produce inaccurate information about people, places, or facts.
The main reason that people don't generally build 3rd rail systems is that they are a lot more expensive to build. As well as the actual 3rd rail costing a lot more to lay than wires and gantries, there is also the issue that with 3rd rails running at a much lower voltage, you need much more frequent power transformers, because of the voltage drop-off. And that also varies with the level of service. I recall around about 10-15 years ago, one of the 3rd rail areas having to put in loads more power transformers when they wanted to run heavier, more frequent trains on it, which cost a lot of money. For the same reason, there are also substantially higher losses and hence lower electrical efficiency.

3rd rail systems are sufficiently expensive that whenever there is substantial renewal or upgrade work required to be done, it is always a plausible alternative on cost grounds to abandon it, whether to replace it with OHLE, or - until modern concerns about CO2 - diesel.

Safety is also a bit of an issue, because it is much easier for passengers to get within close proximity of 3rd rails, whether by trespassing or falling off the platform.

The main reason that the railways south of London got 3rd rail was aesthetics. For some historical reason, not affecting the view got a larger consideration in the southern counties.

3rd rails make a bit more sense in underground railways, because it saves on tunnelling costs to avoid boring the tunnels to the clearances needed for OHLE.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:03 pm
by Woodchopper
I've no expertise, but I assume that a third rail is also more of a problem if there is flooding.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:24 pm
by dyqik
IvanV wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:34 am
The main reason that the railways south of London got 3rd rail was aesthetics. For some historical reason, not affecting the view got a larger consideration in the southern counties.
Guess where the people doing the considering lived.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:50 pm
by Woodchopper
dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:24 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:34 am
The main reason that the railways south of London got 3rd rail was aesthetics. For some historical reason, not affecting the view got a larger consideration in the southern counties.
Guess where the people doing the considering lived.
I expect that they would have lived in North London. That's where the BR headquarters would have been located and back in the mid-20th Century someone with a senior government position would have been unlikely to live South of the River.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:01 pm
by IvanV
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:03 pm
I've no expertise, but I assume that a third rail is also more of a problem if there is flooding.
Certainly 3rd rail systems are more vulnerable in flooding, and I think also in snow.* But there are other problems in flooding and snow too, so I'm not sure how much that adds to system unreliability.

On OHLE, dewiring is such a frequent event, it appears to occur somewhere in the country on a weekly to monthly kind of timescale. Whereas power problems on third rail seem quite rare events. That's anecdotal, but I don't know where to find statistics. But on that anecdotal basis, it looks like overall 3rd rail is a lot more reliable overall than OHLE. Though as was said before, how unreliable OHLE is depends upon the quality of the build, the maintenance, and also on factors to do with the pantographs in use.

But OHLE is so much cheaper and more efficient, reliability does not seem to be a material factor in what you would choose to install.


*I'll never forget taking a Metropolitan line train during a heavy snow event. We had to wait about 45mins for a train with would have a specialist 3rd rail de-icing person and his equipment aboard the train, so that they could get through to stations beyond Rickmansworth. The specialist equipment was a long wooden stick with a flat end. The specialist de-icer jumped out of the train and cleared the ice off the 3rd rail with his long stick.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:10 pm
by Martin_B
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:50 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:24 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:34 am
The main reason that the railways south of London got 3rd rail was aesthetics. For some historical reason, not affecting the view got a larger consideration in the southern counties.
Guess where the people doing the considering lived.
I expect that they would have lived in North London. That's where the BR headquarters would have been located and back in the mid-20th Century someone with a senior government position would have been unlikely to live South of the River.
In this case, "South of the River" could mean Surrey, Sussex, Kent, possibly Hampshire. And people with senior government positions might well live there. There's always been a reasonably quick train service* into the centre of London from those areas.

* Barring breakdowns, strikes, leaves on the line or the wrong type of snow, of course.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:25 pm
by dyqik
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:50 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:24 pm
IvanV wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:34 am
The main reason that the railways south of London got 3rd rail was aesthetics. For some historical reason, not affecting the view got a larger consideration in the southern counties.
Guess where the people doing the considering lived.
I expect that they would have lived in North London. That's where the BR headquarters would have been located and back in the mid-20th Century someone with a senior government position would have been unlikely to live South of the River.
Many civil servants commuted by train to London from the counties even then

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:26 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
IvanV wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:01 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:03 pm
I've no expertise, but I assume that a third rail is also more of a problem if there is flooding.
Certainly 3rd rail systems are more vulnerable in flooding, and I think also in snow.* But there are other problems in flooding and snow too, so I'm not sure how much that adds to system unreliability.

On OHLE, dewiring is such a frequent event, it appears to occur somewhere in the country on a weekly to monthly kind of timescale. Whereas power problems on third rail seem quite rare events. That's anecdotal, but I don't know where to find statistics. But on that anecdotal basis, it looks like overall 3rd rail is a lot more reliable overall than OHLE. Though as was said before, how unreliable OHLE is depends upon the quality of the build, the maintenance, and also on factors to do with the pantographs in use.

But OHLE is so much cheaper and more efficient, reliability does not seem to be a material factor in what you would choose to install.


*I'll never forget taking a Metropolitan line train during a heavy snow event. We had to wait about 45mins for a train with would have a specialist 3rd rail de-icing person and his equipment aboard the train, so that they could get through to stations beyond Rickmansworth. The specialist equipment was a long wooden stick with a flat end. The specialist de-icer jumped out of the train and cleared the ice off the 3rd rail with his long stick.
Certainly there are power problems with third rail, and one of the more common reliability issues it can cause is lineside fires and insulator explosions, plus shoe removal if something's gone wrong with the gauge (e.g. after track maintenance/refurb). OLE dewirements are actually quite a rare event per track km compared to other issues such as track and signalling failure modes. However, the consequence of a dewirement is pretty much always enormous - the failure knocks out the line and usually the adjacent lines (plus all other lines, usually, if it's a span wire rather than a gantry), no trains can run at all, and let's not forget that due to our wonderful lack of a coordinated rail investment strategy for the last... forever, it's only the most critical lines which have OLE, so the impact is felt even more keenly.

OLE does have its weather-related issues too, such as high winds causing problems, but overall third rail is the bigger problem there. The main issue with third rail is that it just makes everything more expensive and harder. Want to tamp a section of track? Got to be careful about the third rail gauge as well as the normal gauge. Want to replace a track circuit section? Best wait extra long to make sure the power is off first. Oh, and if it's on the Brighton Main Line, you only get four hours a night to do simple repairs, so better get a move on.

Re: Railways

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 5:01 pm
by shpalman

Re: Railways

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 8:25 pm
by Brightonian
I wave at them but they don't wave back. I think they should add a bit of code that starts up one's camera and if it detects someone waving, people on the trains would wave back.

Re: Railways

Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 6:48 am
by shpalman

Re: Railways

Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 9:47 am
by wilsontown
It's about bl..dy time, it's been an absolute shambles for years now. No doubt it won't get fixed overnight but First just seem to have thrown in the towel.

Re: Railways

Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 9:50 am
by wilsontown
Just on this bit:
While making the decision to bring Transpennine Express into operator of last resort, the department recognises that a significant number of problems facing TPE stem from matters out of its control. These include a backlog of recruitment and training drivers, reforming how the workforce operates and most notably, ASLEF’s decision to withdraw rest day working – preventing drivers from taking on overtime shifts and filling in gaps on services.
Why do they think that recruitment, training and industrial relations are matters out of TPE's control?

Re: Railways

Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 10:38 am
by El Pollo Diablo
Presumably because the DfT know they are matters in the DfT's control, at least substantially

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 8:41 pm
by shpalman

Re: Railways

Posted: Wed May 17, 2023 11:09 am
by Brightonian
Report of under-investment in German railways: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-deutsche- ... a-65628256

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 9:50 am
by El Pollo Diablo
So, the Tories' great answer to pop the popularity of Labour's rail nationalisation agenda appears to be dead.

A shame, because it seemed like a step in the right direction.

Re: Railways

Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 10:38 am
by IvanV
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 9:50 am
So, the Tories' great answer to pop the popularity of Labour's rail nationalisation agenda appears to be dead.

A shame, because it seemed like a step in the right direction.
Subsequently has been denied.

Though there is a suggestion that it is being watered down, and if watered down enough then the Times might be correct in essence, if the reality is a pale image of the original proposal. I guess we have to wait for the King's Speech to find out.

Re: Railways

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:16 pm
by shpalman

Re: Railways

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:27 pm
by Fishnut
And a group of 12 year olds were abandoned by Avanti a few hours earlier. They couldn't take taxis because there were 5 adults for the group of 50 children which would have left some unaccompanied. In the end the teachers managed to find a coach to take them, something Avanti were seemingly unable to do.

Re: Railways

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:35 pm
by Gfamily
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:27 pm
And a group of 12 year olds were abandoned by Avanti a few hours earlier. They couldn't take taxis because there were 5 adults for the group of 50 children which would have left some unaccompanied. In the end the teachers managed to find a coach to take them, something Avanti were seemingly unable to do.
Did you see about the chip shop that was able to provide them with 60 servings of chips (at less than cost price)
https://twitter.com/modsghs/status/1706410865606467993
- initially they didn't have enough potatoes, but rang 'round and got enough for everyone ?
https://twitter.com/modsghs/status/1706655996649652562

Re: Railways

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:05 am
by IvanV
Not an uncommon occurrence. Indeed it is what inevitably often happens to trains in motion towards a location where a track impediment of some persistence has just arisen. Many of these happen every day. More often I get on a train waiting to leave from a terminal station, only to be told that it won't be departing, nor anything else for the foreseeable, and we have to get off. That happened to me at Stansted Airport recently. So I went to London on a bus and applied for a refund of my rail ticket.

On my commuting line, when unplanned line closures occur, it is practically unknown for alternative transport to be offered. Similarly at Stansted above. You just make your own alternative arrangements at your own cost, and hope for a refund of your rail ticket.

Re: Railways

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:55 pm
by Pishwish
Wasn't sure if it merited its own thread:https://www.404media.co/polish-hackers- ... ning-them/
(non-OEM maintennace company won contract to service trains, trains wouldnt work after servicing, hackers got the trains running again after finding all sorts of conditions that prevented operation, like GPS coordinates of non-OEM repair facilities).

Re: Railways

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:06 pm
by bjn
Pishwish wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:55 pm
Wasn't sure if it merited its own thread:https://www.404media.co/polish-hackers- ... ning-them/
(non-OEM maintennace company won contract to service trains, trains wouldnt work after servicing, hackers got the trains running again after finding all sorts of conditions that prevented operation, like GPS coordinates of non-OEM repair facilities).
I saw that. The train makers are now trying to sue to stop it.