Julian Assange

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dyqik
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:15 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:20 pm
Winkling those apache gunship files out was a public good. I don’t understand the “but someone else could have done it instead” argument.
There are hundreds of US and European journalists with secure dropboxes (electronic or otherwise) for tip-offs and leaks. Of course someone else could have done it.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:15 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:02 pm
dawkins is different. for starters, he’s defending his scientific discipline against religious fundamentalism.
Nah, he's a tw.t to other evolutionary biologists too.

But it's interesting that you'd draw that distinction - I think everybody has some areas where they think "being a massive bellend" can be justified, and others where it can't, and a lot of people don't seem that impressed by what Wikileaks has done.

I do wonder what kind of reception a Russian or Chinese equivalent would get - someone who helped whistleblowers and exposed atrocities, but also endangered allies, and was a narcissistic a..eh.le with sexual assault allegations against them, facing an extradition request to the superpower they'd pissed off.
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:23 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:15 pm
plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:20 pm
Winkling those apache gunship files out was a public good. I don’t understand the “but someone else could have done it instead” argument.
There are hundreds of US and European journalists with secure dropboxes (electronic or otherwise) for tip-offs and leaks. Of course someone else could have done it.
I think it's quite clear that Wikileaks as an organisation fulfilled a role quite distinct from traditional journalism, and was somewhat sui generis. There's probably a reason that many whistleblowers/leakers seemingly preferred Wikileaks to other journalists (and of course some didn't, like Snowden).
THINK BIG AND UPEND THE SYSTEM

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dyqik
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:28 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:23 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:15 pm
plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:20 pm
Winkling those apache gunship files out was a public good. I don’t understand the “but someone else could have done it instead” argument.
There are hundreds of US and European journalists with secure dropboxes (electronic or otherwise) for tip-offs and leaks. Of course someone else could have done it.
I think it's quite clear that Wikileaks as an organisation fulfilled a role quite distinct from traditional journalism, and was somewhat sui generis. There's probably a reason that many whistleblowers/leakers seemingly preferred Wikileaks to other journalists (and of course some didn't, like Snowden).
It's true that mainstream journalism as a whole wasn't very good at that at that particular point in time, but Wikileaks could easily have worked with some of them (probably smaller one rather than the big cable news channels).

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:43 pm

For sure. Probably a non-narcissistic a..eh.le could have done a better job in that role. But OTOH I think there's a question as to whether large collaborative leak-based journalism, like the Paradise Papers etc., were in part spurred on by competition with Wikileaks.
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:56 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:43 pm
For sure. Probably a non-narcissistic a..eh.le could have done a better job in that role. But OTOH I think there's a question as to whether large collaborative leak-based journalism, like the Paradise Papers etc., were in part spurred on by competition with Wikileaks.
Probably it was easier to get permission from editors etc. to pursue it, certainly.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:15 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:56 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:43 pm
For sure. Probably a non-narcissistic a..eh.le could have done a better job in that role. But OTOH I think there's a question as to whether large collaborative leak-based journalism, like the Paradise Papers etc., were in part spurred on by competition with Wikileaks.
Probably it was easier to get permission from editors etc. to pursue it, certainly.
Back then there was a skills shortage in traditional media. Journalists who were used to cultivating human sources didn't know what to do with gigabytes of leaked files. That changed pretty quickly as the better news organizations started hiring new people.

Bellingcat is an example of an organization which has done excellent innovative investigations without being a..eholes.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by plodder » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:27 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:15 pm
plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:20 pm
Winkling those apache gunship files out was a public good. I don’t understand the “but someone else could have done it instead” argument.
There are hundreds of US and European journalists with secure dropboxes (electronic or otherwise) for tip-offs and leaks. Of course someone else could have done it.
Uh? The point being?

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Martin Y » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:12 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:27 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:15 pm
plodder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:20 pm
Winkling those apache gunship files out was a public good. I don’t understand the “but someone else could have done it instead” argument.
There are hundreds of US and European journalists with secure dropboxes (electronic or otherwise) for tip-offs and leaks. Of course someone else could have done it.
Uh? The point being?
Yeah, I'm confused too. Someone did it. Could have been someone else who did it, in which case someone else would have done it. Where are we now?

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by plodder » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 pm

The person who actually did it is a baddie, but if someone else had done it they would be a goodie, I think.

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