Julian Assange

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Al Capone Junior
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Al Capone Junior » Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:17 pm

Putting Dawkins and assamge in the same category, even if they are both douches (a possibility, but likely not the same order of magnitude), is patently absurd. Dawkins has not revealed sensitive personal data that could get people killed, nor is he facing rape charges. And I doubt his apartment smells so bad, but that's just a guess.

But despite my dislike of assamge, I would not recommend he be sent to the US, for similar concerns about fair treatment/objective resolution of his cases.

The US can't seem to be fair or objective about anything these days. But our f.cked up justice system long predates our current woes.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by DJL » Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:13 pm

Regardless of the rights and the wrongs of the case, I'm amused by the calls from various political groups in Australia to free Assange because this whole thing has been going on for too long.

Example

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Herainestold » Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:56 pm

Will Biden send him to Guantanamao?
Trump would have.
If he is extradited, his life is basically over. Like Navalny.
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by plodder » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:47 am

Al Capone Junior wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:17 pm
Putting Dawkins and assamge in the same category, even if they are both douches (a possibility, but likely not the same order of magnitude), is patently absurd. Dawkins has not revealed sensitive personal data that could get people killed, nor is he facing rape charges.
He's not being extradited for the rape charges, he's being extradited for his journalism, the centrepiece of which was footage of a US helicopter crew taking potshots at civilians for lolz. I also found out a few of my neighbours were BNP members due to Wikileaks, and there was a time when it was a genuinely radical portal for journalism. Now the internet has gone to sh.t it feels like it was from a different era, but this "sensitive data that could get people killed" line is not especially compelling IMO.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:27 am

I'm angry he didn't face a trial in Sweden and part of that is directed at the US government for allowing him to use the argument that the US would want to extradite him, so he went and holed up in the Ecuador Embassy.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by IvanV » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:10 pm

Al Capone Junior wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:17 pm
... nor is he facing rape charges.
This was one of the big issues of contention when Sweden tried to extradite him. Was he facing "charges" in Sweden? The Swedish authorities at the time, speaking in English in interviews, were quite clear that he wasn't. He was "under investigation". But in Sweden they compel, or arrest, you for "investigation" in a manner that best corresponds to the kind compulsion, or arrest, you get when you are "charged" in Britain. Even if you haven't been "charged", as the Swedes see it.

Assange tried to argue the European Arrest Warrant was invalid, on the grounds that merely being investigated was not enough for the EAW to applied. But it turned out that in the Swedish translation of the EAW legislation, the word the Swedes were now translating as "investigation" was exactly what you could be subjected to an EAW for. The difficulty, it would seem, of trying to reconcile numerous very different legal systems into a common European arrest instrument, and then trying to translate it.

Sweden has now dropped the "investigation". So he is definitely not facing rape charges in Sweden now. Whether he was ever facing rape charges previously would seem to be a matter of opinion depending upon how you wish translate the Swedish word for the Swedish legal process he was subjected to, which cannot be very well matched onto British legal concepts. He was apparently at a legal stage in Sweden such that an EAW applies. That would be the "charging" stage in Britain. But the Swedish concept differs sufficiently from being "charged", such that Swedish spokespeople denied he had been "charged".

If the US wants to extradite you, then I guess that Britain is probably not the best European country to be in if you wish to contest that. But I don't know what the Swedish extradition treaty with the US looks like.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:28 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:10 pm
Al Capone Junior wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:17 pm
... nor is he facing rape charges.
This was one of the big issues of contention when Sweden tried to extradite him. Was he facing "charges" in Sweden? The Swedish authorities at the time, speaking in English in interviews, were quite clear that he wasn't. He was "under investigation". But in Sweden they compel, or arrest, you for "investigation" in a manner that best corresponds to the kind compulsion, or arrest, you get when you are "charged" in Britain. Even if you haven't been "charged", as the Swedes see it.

Assange tried to argue the European Arrest Warrant was invalid, on the grounds that merely being investigated was not enough for the EAW to applied. But it turned out that in the Swedish translation of the EAW legislation, the word the Swedes were now translating as "investigation" was exactly what you could be subjected to an EAW for. The difficulty, it would seem, of trying to reconcile numerous very different legal systems into a common European arrest instrument, and then trying to translate it.

Sweden has now dropped the "investigation". So he is definitely not facing rape charges in Sweden now. Whether he was ever facing rape charges previously would seem to be a matter of opinion depending upon how you wish translate the Swedish word for the Swedish legal process he was subjected to, which cannot be very well matched onto British legal concepts. He was apparently at a legal stage in Sweden such that an EAW applies. That would be the "charging" stage in Britain. But the Swedish concept differs sufficiently from being "charged", such that Swedish spokespeople denied he had been "charged".

If the US wants to extradite you, then I guess that Britain is probably not the best European country to be in if you wish to contest that. But I don't know what the Swedish extradition treaty with the US looks like.
The Swedish Prosecution Authority has a whole set of webpages on the matter: The Assange Matter

First off - my interpretation is that the ended up dropping the investigation because so much time had elapsed - which was due to Assange hiding in the embassy in London and stopping the investigation proceeding.

Second, on the matter of extradition - if he'd gone ahead with being extradited to Sweden from the UK, he'd actually be in exactly the same position he is now as Sweden would treat being extradited to the USA as going to a third country and would, even if they thought there was merit, allow it if the UK agreed; and that's the situation he's in now. However, they couldn't guarantee he wouldn't be extradited and so he refused to leave the embassy.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:46 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:47 am
Al Capone Junior wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:17 pm
Putting Dawkins and assamge in the same category, even if they are both douches (a possibility, but likely not the same order of magnitude), is patently absurd. Dawkins has not revealed sensitive personal data that could get people killed, nor is he facing rape charges.
He's not being extradited for the rape charges, he's being extradited for his journalism, the centrepiece of which was footage of a US helicopter crew taking potshots at civilians for lolz. I also found out a few of my neighbours were BNP members due to Wikileaks, and there was a time when it was a genuinely radical portal for journalism. Now the internet has gone to sh.t it feels like it was from a different era, but this "sensitive data that could get people killed" line is not especially compelling IMO.
Yes, this is the important point. However bad his flight from questioning in Sweden was/looked, it's clear that he was right that the US want to arrest him for journalism because it exposed things they'd rather cover up. We know that the US does not treat political prisoners (or any prisoners) safely, or even legally in cases like Guantanamo, so a country that gave a sh.t about things like human rights and torture wouldn't extradite him. That's not the UK, though. He'd probably have been better off in Sweden.

Just because someone's an annoying tw.t doesn't mean they deserve to be waterboarded or whatever.
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Herainestold » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:48 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:47 am
Al Capone Junior wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:17 pm
Putting Dawkins and assamge in the same category, even if they are both douches (a possibility, but likely not the same order of magnitude), is patently absurd. Dawkins has not revealed sensitive personal data that could get people killed, nor is he facing rape charges.
He's not being extradited for the rape charges, he's being extradited for his journalism, the centrepiece of which was footage of a US helicopter crew taking potshots at civilians for lolz. I also found out a few of my neighbours were BNP members due to Wikileaks, and there was a time when it was a genuinely radical portal for journalism. Now the internet has gone to sh.t it feels like it was from a different era, but this "sensitive data that could get people killed" line is not especially compelling IMO.
The people that were in danger of being killed were American collaborators in a time of war. So, anyway..
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:25 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:46 pm
He'd probably have been better off in Sweden.
I remember back in the day, the cranky people were saying that the US/UK wanted him extradited to Sweden because it would be easier to get him to the US from there. But just today I saw a cranky person saying that the US/UK were trying to block that, because it would be easier to extradite him from the UK. So who really knows?

It's almost as if you can't trust what cranks say, and they just make whatever's going on at the time fit whatever they already think.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Sciolus » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:15 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:47 am
this "sensitive data that could get people killed" line is not especially compelling IMO.
I guess by now we know how many people got killed due to the leaks.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:29 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:25 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:46 pm
He'd probably have been better off in Sweden.
I remember back in the day, the cranky people were saying that the US/UK wanted him extradited to Sweden because it would be easier to get him to the US from there. But just today I saw a cranky person saying that the US/UK were trying to block that, because it would be easier to extradite him from the UK. So who really knows?

It's almost as if you can't trust what cranks say, and they just make whatever's going on at the time fit whatever they already think.
I do remember seeing some non-cranks saying Sweden were less likely to extradite to the US than the UK would be, at the time.

But I suspect Assange is probably massively paranoid (with good reason - doesn't mean they're not out to get you, as the saying goes).

You can see why Snowden fled immediately to Russia for his own safety, even if that's an odd move when it comes to regimes doing sh.tty things to civilians.
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Martin_B » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:07 am

Didn't the Swedish investigating team question Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy? Or was it that they were only considering it and someone stopped that idea?
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:45 am

Martin_B wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:07 am
Didn't the Swedish investigating team question Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy? Or was it that they were only considering it and someone stopped that idea?
Assange wasn’t interviewed by Swedish officials. They did receive a transcript of him being interviewed by an Ecuadorean prosecutor.

ETA an interview by Swedish officials in the Embassy was announced several times and they flew to London. But the interviews were cancelled at the last minute by Assange or Ecuador.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Al Capone Junior » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:25 pm

I fully agree that assange should not be extradited to the US for the same reasons as everyone else. FFS, look at our "supreme" court. I wouldn't recommend extradition to the US for a f.cking jaywalking charge, not for anyone.

I may have been confused about the rape charges vs investigation, but I don't speak Swedish.

Nevertheless, there's no plausible way that Dawkins and assange are equally douche-ified. Assange just wins that one I'm afraid. If someone can present convincing evidence to the contrary, I'll change my mind.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Al Capone Junior » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:26 pm

Double post

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:57 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:26 am
Anybody remember this Assange guy?

He's that alleged rapist who fled justice and hid in a cupboard in an embassy for years.

Well anyway, if you can remember him and still care, he's getting a judgment on an extradiction thing this morning.

It's not going well for him.
Still going on but not on the news much, it seems.
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Re: Julian Assange

Post by IvanV » Wed May 15, 2024 3:45 pm

Assange chose to take refuge in Ecuadorian embassy in London because Ecuador does not extradite to the US. We have already observed the hypocrisy evident in Ecuador's decision to storm the Mexican embassy to extract a criminal suspect. But now Ecuador has decided to allow extradition to the US.

Ecuador had a referendum on extraditing people to the US, and the people voted in favour of allowing such extradition, by a large majority. Clearly they did so because of the gang violence that has overtaken Ecuador just recently. Being extradited to the US is a bigger threat to gang bosses than a local prison, because the gangs in effect run the prisons. But the effect is that today Ecuador would be no haven for someone wanted on criminal charges by the US.

Meanwhile there is a hearing scheduled for 20 May on whether to allow Assange another appeal against the extradition decision. The article also reports that Biden is considering a request from Australia to drop the case.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by IvanV » Wed May 22, 2024 10:17 am

So Assange has been granted leave to appeal. The court found that the US had failed to provide adequate assurances on 2 of the 3 matters required of them for the extradition to proceed. It seems amazing that it has taken this long to get to this point, given that such assurances are routine in extraditions to the US. The adequate assurance was on the death penalty, the inadequate assurances related to issues of protection of freedom of speech.

It seems curious that the assurances were not adequate. The judge found them quite plainly inadequate. The US lawyers must surely have understood what was required of them to succeed in the extradition, and if they failed to deliver that, that has the look of being something deliberate. There is some speculation that the US would currently find it convenient if the extradition were denied, but without the obviousness of actually withdrawing the application.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by IvanV » Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:28 am

IvanV wrote:
Wed May 22, 2024 10:17 am
There is some speculation that the US would currently find it convenient if the extradition were denied, but without the obviousness of actually withdrawing the application.
And so this game comes to an end, and he will not serve time in a US prison. Maybe the impending possible re-election of Donald Trump made him more amenable to a deal than trying to fight it out.

He has agreed to plead guilty to one charge of espionage, for a sentence of less than the 5 years he has already served on remand at Belmarsh, and can return to Australia as a free man. Since he needs to turn up in person in a US federal courtroom to make that performance, he will attend in the Northern Mariana Islands, as that's near Australia and a long way from the continental USA.

I kind of understand his thinking going to the Marianas, mistrusting what might happen in the continental US. But if the US wants to do the dirty on him, I think they are just of capable of doing that in the Northern Mariana Islands as they are in Washington DC. Possibly even more so, as there are far fewer serious observers keeping an eye on things in the Northern Mariana Islands.

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Re: Julian Assange

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:59 am

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:28 am
I kind of understand his thinking going to the Marianas, mistrusting what might happen in the continental US. But if the US wants to do the dirty on him, I think they are just of capable of doing that in the Northern Mariana Islands as they are in Washington DC. Possibly even more so, as there are far fewer serious observers keeping an eye on things in the Northern Mariana Islands.
I agree, the location is symbolic.

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