Fish ID help needed

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Fishnut
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Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 pm

I'm well outside my area of expertise with this fish as it's a) northern hemisphere and b) freshwater. I found it while out walking the dog the other day. The fields around here (North Somerset) are bordered by rhynes and they'd been dredged, pulling this poor girl out to her death.

The eyes and intestines had been removed (presumably by scavengers, though it could have been aliens) and a lot of the scales had been rubbed off which hasn't helped with my attempts at IDing. Looking through my Observer Book of Freshwater Fishes the closest I can find is a roach but I'd really like more certainty than I feel able to provide.
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it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:27 am

As you say, not much left to go by, but the tail remnant and lack of scales pretty much give it away as a trout; other than trout, only us tenchies have a tail anything like that and the head and colouration isn't that of a tench. Roaches and rudds and the like all have rayed fins and tails rather than fleshy as here.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by noggins » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:06 am

Its a trout with mange

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by lpm » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:26 am

Today's special is trout with mange, served with an artichoke confit, lamb granita and anchovy coulis.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by bob sterman » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:14 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:26 am
Today's special is trout with mange, served with an artichoke confit, lamb granita and anchovy coulis.
Mangetrout?

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Tessa K » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:51 am

Based on my knowledge of eating fish my first thought was trout too. A poorly trout.

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by TimW » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:41 pm

It's been battered.

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:57 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions. - I've done a compare and contrast on tench vs trout vs my fish and I think it's a tench. My reasoning is thus:
- trout have an adipose fin, my fish has none, neither does tench
- tench have a deep body, as does my fish, but trout have a slender body
- trout have a long mouth with a hooked 'lip', tench have a small upward facing mouth. The mouth of my fish is small and though damaged appears to have an upward-facing profile (it's actually stuck gaping, probably died gasping for breath poor thing)
- trout don't appear to have a visible lateral line whereas tench do. The remains of the lateral line are just visible below the dorsal fin.
Annotated.fish.jpg
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I've tried looking for photos of the otoliths* to compare the two species with mine but everything I found was sectioned which wasn't helpful. Though if people contest my conclusion I remembered today that there's a trout farm at the other end of town (not connected to the rhyne this fish was found in, I hasten to add) so I can see if I can buy one for dinner one night and take the otoliths for comparison (or just get a head if they don't mind giving me one). If the otoliths are the same shape then I can't rule out trout but if they are different then I can.

*for those who aren't as familiar with otoliths, they're 'ear stones' (calcium carbonate structures in the form of aragonite) that are found in the heads of fish. They're located in the semi-circular canals and are used in hearing and balance. They are three sorts and they are paired. They are really useful in fisheries science because they grow with the fish, forming when the fish is still in the egg, and growing in annual rings so they can be used to age the fish like people do with tree rings. They are also useful to lots of other researchers as different species have different shapes (related species are often similar shapes but there's a massive variation across the different families). This means that if you find otoliths in, say, sediments or middens or stomachs, you can work out fairly accurately what fish they came from, allowing you to reconstruct past fish fauna, or what people/animals were eating.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:28 am

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:57 pm
Thanks for all the suggestions. - I've done a compare and contrast on tench vs trout vs my fish and I think it's a tench. My reasoning is thus:
- trout have an adipose fin, my fish has none, neither does tench
- tench have a deep body, as does my fish, but trout have a slender body
- trout have a long mouth with a hooked 'lip', tench have a small upward facing mouth. The mouth of my fish is small and though damaged appears to have an upward-facing profile (it's actually stuck gaping, probably died gasping for breath poor thing)
- trout don't appear to have a visible lateral line whereas tench do. The remains of the lateral line are just visible below the dorsal fin.

Annotated.fish.jpg

I've tried looking for photos of the otoliths* to compare the two species with mine but everything I found was sectioned which wasn't helpful. Though if people contest my conclusion I remembered today that there's a trout farm at the other end of town (not connected to the rhyne this fish was found in, I hasten to add) so I can see if I can buy one for dinner one night and take the otoliths for comparison (or just get a head if they don't mind giving me one). If the otoliths are the same shape then I can't rule out trout but if they are different then I can.

*for those who aren't as familiar with otoliths, they're 'ear stones' (calcium carbonate structures in the form of aragonite) that are found in the heads of fish. They're located in the semi-circular canals and are used in hearing and balance. They are three sorts and they are paired. They are really useful in fisheries science because they grow with the fish, forming when the fish is still in the egg, and growing in annual rings so they can be used to age the fish like people do with tree rings. They are also useful to lots of other researchers as different species have different shapes (related species are often similar shapes but there's a massive variation across the different families). This means that if you find otoliths in, say, sediments or middens or stomachs, you can work out fairly accurately what fish they came from, allowing you to reconstruct past fish fauna, or what people/animals were eating.
Edit
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:41 am

Right, sorry for the edit, gave a quick answer as I was having breakfast, thought I might as well put in a bit more detail, saw the time, had to rush and binned it.

First point. that is not a tench, take your pic to any tackle shop or lakeside: see what they say.
Take it to the trout farm, see what they say.
I don't want to argue from authority I've only been fishing for, and catching tench for nearly fifty years, but that is not a tench.
Second. The lack of adipose fin needn't be problematical: it is a fatty deposit rather than a rayed fin and would disappear quickly during decomposition or be an early part to be scavenged.

One possibility that I had thought of earlier and which now, seeing that better picture I am still inclined towards, especially with that bony dorsal fin, is that, rather than a trout - a sea-trout that is, same species as a brown trout but estuarine in habit and of a silver hue - is that it could be a young salmon - a smolt if facing downstream, a grisle if facing up (especially at this time of year when the migratory salmon are returning to the rivers to spawn) but I don't fish for them and don't know enough of their habits to make a call based on their life cycle or physiological differences. 'Silver Pirates' one and all!

Buy it ent a tench.

Edit.
Although In keep looking at it and thinking, "well i spose it could be"
if this and if that
but
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am

Thanks for the rebuttal! I'm still not buying it being a salmonid as the body shape and mouth shape look wrong to me, as does the colouration but I do want to defer to your expertise and accept that it's probably not a tench.

I've emailed the local Freshwater Angling Club asking for help following your suggestion. I'm hoping they'll have more familiarity with what's in the rhynes around here. Even if they can't I'm hoping they might have some fish in their freezers whose heads I can have for otolith comparison.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:23 am

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am
Thanks for the rebuttal! I'm still not buying it being a salmonid as the body shape and mouth shape look wrong to me, as does the colouration but I do want to defer to your expertise and accept that it's probably not a tench.

I've emailed the local Freshwater Angling Club asking for help following your suggestion. I'm hoping they'll have more familiarity with what's in the rhynes around here. Even if they can't I'm hoping they might have some fish in their freezers whose heads I can have for otolith comparison.
Ah yes, that was the other thing: I was going to say speak to local anglers or pop into or phone the local tackle shop and see what species are present in the rhynes and what species are likely to be present. Do the rhynes run to the river and down to the sea? Are sea trout and salmon present? Are the two questions to ask.
Best of luck.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:46 pm

Thank you :D

There's no particularly local tackle shop, and I tried phoning the trout farm but there was no reply :( . I should really find out how the waterways flow around here. I know there's a couple of streams/rivers but I think most of the rhynes are just fed by overflow-water from the fields. It looks like they may be managed by these people so when I'm bored one day I might send them an email and see if I can be nosey. I found an eel in a field in the summer, which was quite exciting so there's clearly some connection to the sea but I don't know how much.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:54 pm

I had a reply from the angling club. They are " almost certain it’s a roach".
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:57 pm

You know it could be a tench.
But for it being silver it would be a tench.
The wrist of the tail is deep, although the wrist of a trout is deep this is very deep: like a tench.
Deep in the body as you say: notable 'shoulder' like a tench, too deep for a trout.
And there is some green on the gill cover, but it should be green all over if it is a tench.
And if it were a tench you wouldn't have to invent a story to excuse the lack of adipose tissue.
But you would have to invent a story to excuse its not being green.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:57 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:54 pm
I had a reply from the angling club. They are " almost certain it’s a roach".
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Utter bollox.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by tenchboy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:10 pm

One of the first thing you learn as a fisher-boy is how to tell the difference between a roach and a rudd; two very similar looking fish but not as similar as , say, a willow warbler and a chiffchaff.
The one thing you are told to look for, which you never even consider once you've got your eye in is that the front of the dorsal fin is directly over the front of the pelvic fin on a roach but set further back on a rudd. (A clockwise rotation of the features when your specimen is facing left much like the identifying features - mouth and anus - being rotated forward (mouth) and back (anus) when you compare Micraster cortestudinarium with M.coranguinum

It isn't a rudd either.

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:27 pm

Damn you!! Why is it so hard to ID this f.cking thing?!
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:36 pm

Maybe it's a mutant fish. Have you checked if the rhyne leads to Hinckley? ;)
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:36 pm
Maybe it's a mutant fish. Have you checked if the rhyne leads to Hinckley? ;)
:lol:
It's possible but quite a swim!
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:47 pm

It is surprising to me, though - mangled bird corpses are reasonably straight forward to identify even with most of the feathers missing. I guess loss of scales and a bit of decomposition ruins a lot of fish id features?

I know shamefully little about fish. My first thought was roach based on that red fin on the underside, but I fully expect I could be wrong.

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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:02 pm

I think the loss of scales is the problem, plus too many fishy versions of "little brown jobs" that make it difficult to be sure. It wasn't actually very decomposed - the cold weather had kept it quite fresh. The gonads still looked good and it didn't smell. I think it just got quite damaged from the dredging. The damage didn't seem that bad to me but I've worked with fish hauled in pelagic trawlers where the smaller bycatch has been descaled and in some cases practically pureed, so I'm probably working from a different level of expectation to people catching fish with a rod and hook (or whatever it is that freshwater fishers use).

I really wish I'd taken a closer look at it now - I should have done some fin spine/ray counts at the very least. I just figured it'd be easy to ID :oops: I think I'm going to have to ask the angling club if they've got any specimens I can take otoliths from and just pray that they're different enough to be diagnostic.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:21 pm

Definitely not a roach - the scales that are left are far too small and roach don't seem to have a visible lateral line. I keep coming back to tench. The scales are the right size, the lateral line looks right, and if you bash the fish in this photo around a bit and peck out their eyes I think you can get to my fish.
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by Gfamily » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:35 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:38 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:36 pm
Maybe it's a mutant fish. Have you checked if the rhyne leads to Hinckley? ;)
:lol:
It's possible but quite a swim!
Maybe it walked?
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Re: Fish ID help needed

Post by discovolante » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 pm

Well this thread has been quite an education for me, for what it's worth.

Happy to help.
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