The US after Trump

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:55 am

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:24 am
There's a lot of talk about reconciliation and forgiveness to heal the rift in US society but that's letting the racists and other bigots off the hook. Some people don't deserve forgiveness. To earn it the offenders need to take responsibility for their actions and change their ways, otherwise it's the victims who have to do all the work and the offenders just carry on. Not everyone who voted Trump is a rabid racist but they stand alongside people who are, tacitly validating their views. Telling people to forgive is not justice.

I agree, but I'm not sure I see it happening. Biden loves compromising with people, even deplorable people like actual segregationists. I expect he'll take a softly-softly approach that allows the racists to continue much as before, but choosing their words a bit more carefully.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Martin Y » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:13 am

JQH wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:16 pm
I don't think Johnson is going to get much traction:

https://twitter.com/TVietor08/status/13 ... -a-raab%2F

ETA: "Shapeshifting creep" sums him up perfectly. His entire career in two words.
I managed to forget Johnson's racist comments about Obama (amid all the other racist comments about Obama and all the other crass things Johnson's said). I didn't know there was going to be a test. Can I borrow someone's notes?

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by JQH » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:56 am

The Democrats certainly seem to have been taking notes. And have very long memories.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 am

For those who like links, they've got a website up already https://buildbackbetter.com/

The BBC has a look through Biden's plans here https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54866037
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malbui
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by malbui » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:24 am

I'm torn on this. The rational, reasonable part of my brain wants to see dialogue and the search for common values and common ground. The radical, angry side of my brain wants to see a bit of France 1945 and some serious settling of scores.
And when it starts to slide
Let it go
Leave it behind

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by lpm » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:31 am

Yes. Peace requires terrorists to be released from prison under an amnesty but when you're a victim it must be agonising to see someone who orchestrated a bombing set free.

There needs to be a division between the violent Trumpists and those who committed serious crimes, and the Trumpists who merely said racist things or committed minor crimes.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:37 am

It's not just high-profile racists, though.

For example, there are loads of racist cops who kill black men for no good reason and go unpunished. That's bad. Biden and Harris are talking about banning chokeholds, which is lovely, but when cops used an already-banned chokehold to kill Eric Garner they didn't get punished. There's no point making rules if they aren't enforced, but AFAICT they aren't planning to give teeth to police regulation.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Tessa K » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:03 pm

malbui wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:24 am
I'm torn on this. The rational, reasonable part of my brain wants to see dialogue and the search for common values and common ground. The radical, angry side of my brain wants to see a bit of France 1945 and some serious settling of scores.
The problem with that is millions of people voted for Trump not due a few thousand collabos. Tightening and enforcing laws would be a start.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:22 pm

We're not at 1945 France yet, we're still in 1930s Germany. The fascists have just received a temporary setback, but are still enormously powerful and enormously popular with the public. They need to look like total losers - weak, and unappealing to people who are attracted to power rather than moral rectitude. So they need to be crushed hard and prevented from making a comeback in 4 years.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:23 pm

One good bit of news is the first Hatch Act investigation is already happening (regarding use of the White House as an election headquarters, in this case, but many more investigations are needed). I'd love it if it became the norm that, at the end of every administration, there was an open, public enquiry into proper use of government resources. It might focus minds on not doing the sort of corrupt sh.t Trump's done.

Lots of discussion right now about whether the Dems underperforming with poor Hispanic voters in Texas is focussing on were they too woke/not woke enough, rather than, say, Trump putting his name on cheques sent out as taxpayer funded government assistance from a bill passed by Congress.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by lpm » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:34 pm

It's crazy to have so much discussion based on partial actual results, uncalibrated exit polls and hasty opinion pieces.

There's a year in which to do all this properly, not a couple of days.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:14 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:34 pm
It's crazy to have so much discussion based on partial actual results, uncalibrated exit polls and hasty opinion pieces.

There's a year in which to do all this properly, not a couple of days.
True, and I'd really like to see less of the "which group does this exit poll tell us we are allowed to treat with contempt rather than judging individuals for their own behaviour" genre that is all over twitter right now.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by AMS » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:01 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:14 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:34 pm
It's crazy to have so much discussion based on partial actual results, uncalibrated exit polls and hasty opinion pieces.

There's a year in which to do all this properly, not a couple of days.
True, and I'd really like to see less of the "which group does this exit poll tell us we are allowed to treat with contempt rather than judging individuals for their own behaviour" genre that is all over twitter right now.
Thankfully, Biden and co are ignoring all this, and are instead getting on with preparations for setting up their administration. And it definitely looks like their plan is to emphasise that the Trump era is over.

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discovolante
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by discovolante » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:27 pm

Please no civil war.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:46 pm

Good article, about how Trump isn’t going away: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ed/617021/

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by malbui » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:51 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:03 pm
malbui wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:24 am
I'm torn on this. The rational, reasonable part of my brain wants to see dialogue and the search for common values and common ground. The radical, angry side of my brain wants to see a bit of France 1945 and some serious settling of scores.
The problem with that is millions of people voted for Trump not due a few thousand collabos. Tightening and enforcing laws would be a start.
Nah. I want show trials and tearful confessions.
And when it starts to slide
Let it go
Leave it behind

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:36 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:23 pm
One good bit of news is the first Hatch Act investigation is already happening (regarding use of the White House as an election headquarters, in this case, but many more investigations are needed). I'd love it if it became the norm that, at the end of every administration, there was an open, public enquiry into proper use of government resources. It might focus minds on not doing the sort of corrupt sh.t Trump's done.
Be careful what you wish for. What happens to people like Trump when they leave office will be done by people like Trump when they gain office. And if you make loss of office bad enough you undermine the transfer of power as it becomes worth using any desperate measures to hang on. In the specific case of Trump, he cannot hang on because he's incompetent, but it's easy to imagine a more competent, nasty office holder.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:46 am

It's for things like this that a politically independent judiciary would be useful.

Unfortunately we're talking about the USA.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by EACLucifer » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:36 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:23 pm
One good bit of news is the first Hatch Act investigation is already happening (regarding use of the White House as an election headquarters, in this case, but many more investigations are needed). I'd love it if it became the norm that, at the end of every administration, there was an open, public enquiry into proper use of government resources. It might focus minds on not doing the sort of corrupt sh.t Trump's done.
Be careful what you wish for. What happens to people like Trump when they leave office will be done by people like Trump when they gain office. And if you make loss of office bad enough you undermine the transfer of power as it becomes worth using any desperate measures to hang on. In the specific case of Trump, he cannot hang on because he's incompetent, but it's easy to imagine a more competent, nasty office holder.
I'm talking about a non-partisan investigation into the use of taxpayer dollars to campaign. It's fairly simple, and your argument could equally be applied to "be careful about wanting laws against murder - bad people could make up evidence of a murder and jail people".

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by dyqik » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:49 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:36 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:23 pm
One good bit of news is the first Hatch Act investigation is already happening (regarding use of the White House as an election headquarters, in this case, but many more investigations are needed). I'd love it if it became the norm that, at the end of every administration, there was an open, public enquiry into proper use of government resources. It might focus minds on not doing the sort of corrupt sh.t Trump's done.
Be careful what you wish for. What happens to people like Trump when they leave office will be done by people like Trump when they gain office. And if you make loss of office bad enough you undermine the transfer of power as it becomes worth using any desperate measures to hang on. In the specific case of Trump, he cannot hang on because he's incompetent, but it's easy to imagine a more competent, nasty office holder.
I'm talking about a non-partisan investigation into the use of taxpayer dollars to campaign. It's fairly simple, and your argument could equally be applied to "be careful about wanting laws against murder - bad people could make up evidence of a murder and jail people".
It's like saying that we shouldn't prosecute angry racist cops that shoot black people on pretenses, because it'll make racist cops angry, and then they'll shoot black people on pretenses.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:43 pm

Well they've got to contend with the likes of this kind of person in positions of (local) power.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:45 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:43 pm
Well they've got to contend with the likes of this kind of person in positions of (local) power.
Yes, there are huge challenges ahead. Swapping the president might make things a little easier, but the whole country is still riddled with racists from top to bottom.
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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Herainestold » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:50 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:45 pm

Yes, there are huge challenges ahead. Swapping the president might make things a little easier, but the whole country is still riddled with racists from top to bottom.
Almost 50% racist and white supremacist if the election results are to be believed.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:10 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:50 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:45 pm

Yes, there are huge challenges ahead. Swapping the president might make things a little easier, but the whole country is still riddled with racists from top to bottom.
Almost 50% racist and white supremacist if the election results are to be believed.
Which is still better than having a one party state forcing hundreds of thousands of people into camps purely because of their ethnicity, and trying to destroy the culture of every cultural, ethnic and linguistic minority.

In case I'm not clear enough here, f.ck off you fascist bootlicker.

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Re: The US after Trump

Post by Grumble » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:15 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:45 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:43 pm
Well they've got to contend with the likes of this kind of person in positions of (local) power.
Yes, there are huge challenges ahead. Swapping the president might make things a little easier, but the whole country is still riddled with racists from top to bottom.
It is, but also filled with people who are scared of the bogeyman. Normally some sort of socialist bogeyman who will “take their guns” or some such.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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