Wearing mink

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Squeak
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Squeak » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:12 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:08 am
Boustrophedon wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:26 am
If the animal inside is farmed humanely and eaten for food, then I am ok with other parts of the animal being used as well. So rabbit fur is OK by me.

But farming of hunting an animal for just it's fur, or anal glands or whatever seems stupid and wasteful.
In practice, in industrial production the animals used to produce one product (eg meat) are not the same as the animals used to produce another (eg feathers, wool etc).

Each variety of animal has been bred to optimize production of a particular product. For example, very few hens that produce eggs are eaten for their meat. Its just not the kind of flesh that a consumer expects to see on the supermarket shelf. And hens bred for meat production aren't used for egg production.

So the sheep sold for meat aren't also used to produce wool or sheepskin, and I'd be very surprised if the ducks bred for down were also eaten or used to produce eggs.

As far as I know, cattle are an exception as its too expensive to raise a cow and only use part of it.
That's roughly my understanding of how it works. However, the by-products do get used, just not for premium products (e.g. see the Times article I shared for the source of mink food). Thus, elderly layer hens or will sheep won't show up as prime fillets but might be in animal food or other highly processed products.
The idea of single-product farms is rarely completely true, simply because nobody can afford to throw away all their scraps.

Hell, even animal sh.t is famously an important source of soil nutrients.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:17 pm

Squeak wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:12 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:08 am
Boustrophedon wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:26 am
If the animal inside is farmed humanely and eaten for food, then I am ok with other parts of the animal being used as well. So rabbit fur is OK by me.

But farming of hunting an animal for just it's fur, or anal glands or whatever seems stupid and wasteful.
In practice, in industrial production the animals used to produce one product (eg meat) are not the same as the animals used to produce another (eg feathers, wool etc).

Each variety of animal has been bred to optimize production of a particular product. For example, very few hens that produce eggs are eaten for their meat. Its just not the kind of flesh that a consumer expects to see on the supermarket shelf. And hens bred for meat production aren't used for egg production.

So the sheep sold for meat aren't also used to produce wool or sheepskin, and I'd be very surprised if the ducks bred for down were also eaten or used to produce eggs.

As far as I know, cattle are an exception as its too expensive to raise a cow and only use part of it.
That's roughly my understanding of how it works. However, the by-products do get used, just not for premium products (e.g. see the Times article I shared for the source of mink food). Thus, elderly layer hens or will sheep won't show up as prime fillets but might be in animal food or other highly processed products.
The idea of single-product farms is rarely completely true, simply because nobody can afford to throw away all their scraps.

Hell, even animal sh.t is famously an important source of soil nutrients.
Yes, indeed. There will be some by products that are sold as well. I just wanted to make the point that there isn't much overlap in the products that most people actually buy.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:38 pm

One thing that I think would cool discussions like this down - not that this one is that bad right now, mind you - is to remember than personal decisions don't need to be reasoned and justified, for the most part. One does not need to create a reasoned, consistent argument for veganism in order to choose to be vegan, nor to reject fur, or leather, or whatever combination one wants, and such preferences should be respected.

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Grumble
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Grumble » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: price of fur, there was a story a few months or a year back about how fur was now so cheap it was being used in products labelled as faux fur.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Tessa K
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Tessa K » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:31 pm

I'd quite like to wear mink - a real live on to sit on my shoulder as I go round the shops

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lpm
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by lpm » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:38 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:38 pm
One thing that I think would cool discussions like this down - not that this one is that bad right now, mind you - is to remember than personal decisions don't need to be reasoned and justified, for the most part. One does not need to create a reasoned, consistent argument for veganism in order to choose to be vegan, nor to reject fur, or leather, or whatever combination one wants, and such preferences should be respected.
Thanks, I'll remember that when I take personal decisions to rip apart foxes and do a bit of bullfighting. No need to be reasoned, justified or consistent - hooray!
I'll miss him after he's fled to Riyadh

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:20 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:38 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:38 pm
One thing that I think would cool discussions like this down - not that this one is that bad right now, mind you - is to remember than personal decisions don't need to be reasoned and justified, for the most part. One does not need to create a reasoned, consistent argument for veganism in order to choose to be vegan, nor to reject fur, or leather, or whatever combination one wants, and such preferences should be respected.
Thanks, I'll remember that when I take personal decisions to rip apart foxes and do a bit of bullfighting. No need to be reasoned, justified or consistent - hooray!
I was talking about choosing to refrain from things, but I'll clarify.

One does not need a reasoned or consistent argument to place greater restrictions on oneself, not the other way.

Wanting to keep to a vegan diet in a society where that is not the norm does not require any argument beyond "I want to"

Wanting to engage in behaviours deemed cruel in a society that has rejected and criminalised such behaviour does require something rather more than "I want to"

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lpm
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by lpm » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:53 pm

Why?

Asymmetry is not a good starting point.

Referring to "the norm" in society is definitely not a place to be lingering.

Reaching your own personal preference is not a good place for your argument to end up at.

I enjoy a bit of bullfighting as do thousands of others, and if society's "norm" should not bother a vegan for a moment why should it bother me? If the rest of you refuse to restrict yourselves and partake in things rejected and criminalised by society - taking cocaine for example - why should I restrict myself? The cruelty of cocaine production and distribution, with paramilitary violence, gang murders and corruption, hasn't seemed to have led to much refraining - I've heard a lot of "I want to" from drug takers on this forum, so why can't I repeat "I want to" when I want to watch bullfighting?
I'll miss him after he's fled to Riyadh

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Boustrophedon » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:15 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:08 am
Boustrophedon wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:26 am
If the animal inside is farmed humanely and eaten for food, then I am ok with other parts of the animal being used as well. So rabbit fur is OK by me.

But farming of hunting an animal for just it's fur, or anal glands or whatever seems stupid and wasteful.
In practice, in industrial production the animals used to produce one product (eg meat) are not the same as the animals used to produce another (eg feathers, wool etc).

Each variety of animal has been bred to optimize production of a particular product. For example, very few hens that produce eggs are eaten for their meat. Its just not the kind of flesh that a consumer expects to see on the supermarket shelf. And hens bred for meat production aren't used for egg production.

So the sheep sold for meat aren't also used to produce wool or sheepskin, and I'd be very surprised if the ducks bred for down were also eaten or used to produce eggs.

But something happens to them at the end of productive life, they are used if only for pet food.

As far as I know, cattle are an exception as its too expensive to raise a cow and only use part of it.
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:33 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:38 pm
One thing that I think would cool discussions like this down - not that this one is that bad right now, mind you - is to remember than personal decisions don't need to be reasoned and justified, for the most part. One does not need to create a reasoned, consistent argument for veganism in order to choose to be vegan, nor to reject fur, or leather, or whatever combination one wants, and such preferences should be respected.
Such discussions are very rarely about personal decisions. They are usually about advocating that other people should do something.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Chris Preston » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:05 am

Squeak wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 am
As Chris Preston has told us repeatedly, it's hard to grow enough protein from plant sources to meet humans' protein needs, so we probably need to eat some, and it's hard to find benign replacements for leather, so we probably need to keep producing some of that. And it's hard to replicate the warmth that down and fur provide, so we'll probably keep killing ducks and furry things for that. But all of those products are used at least as much for pleasure and status-signaling in modern societies, as they are for survival. I'm not sure I can make a clear ethical argument for why one would be worse than the others.
To be fair, this is the current situation. It does not have to be the future situation.

Just taking the plant protein situation as an example, if what was achieved for cereals in the Green Revolution could be achieved for pulses, the problem would be solved. One of the ironies of the Green Revolution is that it had a huge impact on world hunger, but left a legacy of undernutrition - people who have enough to eat, but don't get all their nutritional needs.

I am sure it would be possible to develop a synthetic down that was every bit as good as the natural one. The downside is that it would probably, in the first instance be made from oil feedstocks, so the trade off between pollution and farming ducks would have to be factored in.
Here grows much rhubarb.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Squeak » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:13 am

Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:05 am
Squeak wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 am
As Chris Preston has told us repeatedly, it's hard to grow enough protein from plant sources to meet humans' protein needs, so we probably need to eat some, and it's hard to find benign replacements for leather, so we probably need to keep producing some of that. And it's hard to replicate the warmth that down and fur provide, so we'll probably keep killing ducks and furry things for that. But all of those products are used at least as much for pleasure and status-signaling in modern societies, as they are for survival. I'm not sure I can make a clear ethical argument for why one would be worse than the others.
To be fair, this is the current situation. It does not have to be the future situation.

Just taking the plant protein situation as an example, if what was achieved for cereals in the Green Revolution could be achieved for pulses, the problem would be solved. One of the ironies of the Green Revolution is that it had a huge impact on world hunger, but left a legacy of undernutrition - people who have enough to eat, but don't get all their nutritional needs.

I am sure it would be possible to develop a synthetic down that was every bit as good as the natural one. The downside is that it would probably, in the first instance be made from oil feedstocks, so the trade off between pollution and farming ducks would have to be factored in.
You're back! G'day, stranger! Now you can make the argument for (current) animal husbandry much more eloquently then I can.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Tessa K » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 am

Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:05 am
Squeak wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 am
As Chris Preston has told us repeatedly, it's hard to grow enough protein from plant sources to meet humans' protein needs, so we probably need to eat some, and it's hard to find benign replacements for leather, so we probably need to keep producing some of that. And it's hard to replicate the warmth that down and fur provide, so we'll probably keep killing ducks and furry things for that. But all of those products are used at least as much for pleasure and status-signaling in modern societies, as they are for survival. I'm not sure I can make a clear ethical argument for why one would be worse than the others.
To be fair, this is the current situation. It does not have to be the future situation.

Just taking the plant protein situation as an example, if what was achieved for cereals in the Green Revolution could be achieved for pulses, the problem would be solved. One of the ironies of the Green Revolution is that it had a huge impact on world hunger, but left a legacy of undernutrition - people who have enough to eat, but don't get all their nutritional needs.

I am sure it would be possible to develop a synthetic down that was every bit as good as the natural one. The downside is that it would probably, in the first instance be made from oil feedstocks, so the trade off between pollution and farming ducks would have to be factored in.
Is down very much warmer? I'm allergic to feathers so I've never had a down duvet or pillows to judge the difference. Also to wool, which I'm told is warmer.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Lydia Gwilt » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 am

Yes down is much warmer and less sweaty if you overheat. As is wool. Also wool still insulates when wet which is why I wear wool stockings and breeches when winter hiking rather than synthetic and jeans for example

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Woodchopper
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:14 am

Lydia Gwilt wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 am
Yes down is much warmer and less sweaty if you overheat. As is wool. Also wool still insulates when wet which is why I wear wool stockings and breeches when winter hiking rather than synthetic and jeans for example
Yes, down is warmer. An advantage of down is that its a lot lighter than a wool coat that provides equivalent insulation. So in practice someone can get a lot warmer with a down coat so long as we assume that there is a maximum weight they'll carry on their shoulders.

I agree completely about water. The disadvantage of down is that needs to be kept dry whereas wool, as you say, is still a good insulator when wet. Basic rule is wool above zero degrees, down below.

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Tessa K
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Tessa K » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:16 am

Lydia Gwilt wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 am
Yes down is much warmer and less sweaty if you overheat. As is wool. Also wool still insulates when wet which is why I wear wool stockings and breeches when winter hiking rather than synthetic and jeans for example
But doesn't wool get soggy when wet, take longer to dry and have a tendency to shrink or get matted?

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:37 am

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:16 am
Lydia Gwilt wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 am
Yes down is much warmer and less sweaty if you overheat. As is wool. Also wool still insulates when wet which is why I wear wool stockings and breeches when winter hiking rather than synthetic and jeans for example
But doesn't wool get soggy when wet, take longer to dry and have a tendency to shrink or get matted?
Wool still insulates a bit when wet (and it dries much quicker than cotton). Wool won't shrink in cold water like rain, but you need to be careful when drying it to stop it getting misshapen.

If down gets soaked the feathers just form a soggy clump which doesn't insulate at all. When off on camping trips I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my sleeping bag stays dry.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Tessa K » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:05 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:37 am
Tessa K wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:16 am
Lydia Gwilt wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 am
Yes down is much warmer and less sweaty if you overheat. As is wool. Also wool still insulates when wet which is why I wear wool stockings and breeches when winter hiking rather than synthetic and jeans for example
But doesn't wool get soggy when wet, take longer to dry and have a tendency to shrink or get matted?
Wool still insulates a bit when wet (and it dries much quicker than cotton). Wool won't shrink in cold water like rain, but you need to be careful when drying it to stop it getting misshapen.

If down gets soaked the feathers just form a soggy clump which doesn't insulate at all. When off on camping trips I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my sleeping bag stays dry.
I have a couple of wool blend skirts and I've learnt from sad experience that even washing at 20 degrees there can be considerable shrinkage. :(

For jumpers I usually go for cotton or viscose, sometimes in a blend with a small amount of synthetics. I've learnt that I can just about cope with 5% of a softer wool in a jumper as long as I wear long sleeves under it. No wonder my childhood was itchy, with wool knitted balaclavas and even a knitted swimsuit when I was very small.

Bamboo knitted items are very soft and nice to wear but it's expensive to knit with. I don't know how it compares with wool.

I do have a black feather boa from a charity shop but the occasion to wear it has yet to arise.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:11 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:05 pm
I have a couple of wool blend skirts and I've learnt from sad experience that even washing at 20 degrees there can be considerable shrinkage. :(
For what it's worth, pure wool outerwear generally doesn't actually need to be washed. Dirt can be brushed off, and airing deals with odours pretty well.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Chris Preston » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:16 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 am

Is down very much warmer? I'm allergic to feathers so I've never had a down duvet or pillows to judge the difference. Also to wool, which I'm told is warmer.
I have been looking for some scientific testing on this, but most of what I am finding is opinion. The consensus of that opinion is that the value you want to consider is warmth to weight ratio. Down does better than wool in this respect. To get the same warmth from wool, you need a lot more weight.

There are other attributes to consider, such as what you need the item for. Down will be better in cold, dry situations, but not as good in cold, wet situations. As you say allergies can influence the utility.
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Re: Wearing mink

Post by jimbob » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:43 pm

Chris Preston wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:16 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 am

Is down very much warmer? I'm allergic to feathers so I've never had a down duvet or pillows to judge the difference. Also to wool, which I'm told is warmer.
I have been looking for some scientific testing on this, but most of what I am finding is opinion. The consensus of that opinion is that the value you want to consider is warmth to weight ratio. Down does better than wool in this respect. To get the same warmth from wool, you need a lot more weight.

There are other attributes to consider, such as what you need the item for. Down will be better in cold, dry situations, but not as good in cold, wet situations. As you say allergies can influence the utility.
Down is far lighter than wool for the same weight. Or indeed warmth to packed-size ratio.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Squeak » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:37 pm

I'm astonished there aren't numbers easily available comparing weight by warmth. People quantify down loft and insulation readily and the difference between wool and down *feels* really obvious.

For the itchy among us with traumatic memories of childhood wool, I highly recommend trying the new merino thermal-type clothes. As an itchy kid, I never would have believed wool could be wearable. Now, it's just about all I wear for six months of the year. Thin wool layers with a down jacket on the outside when it's properly cold and I can be sure I'll keep the down dry. And my short sleeved wool tops get a lot of wear in summer too.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by bjn » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:43 am

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 am
Chris Preston wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:05 am
Squeak wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 am
As Chris Preston has told us repeatedly, it's hard to grow enough protein from plant sources to meet humans' protein needs, so we probably need to eat some, and it's hard to find benign replacements for leather, so we probably need to keep producing some of that. And it's hard to replicate the warmth that down and fur provide, so we'll probably keep killing ducks and furry things for that. But all of those products are used at least as much for pleasure and status-signaling in modern societies, as they are for survival. I'm not sure I can make a clear ethical argument for why one would be worse than the others.
To be fair, this is the current situation. It does not have to be the future situation.

Just taking the plant protein situation as an example, if what was achieved for cereals in the Green Revolution could be achieved for pulses, the problem would be solved. One of the ironies of the Green Revolution is that it had a huge impact on world hunger, but left a legacy of undernutrition - people who have enough to eat, but don't get all their nutritional needs.

I am sure it would be possible to develop a synthetic down that was every bit as good as the natural one. The downside is that it would probably, in the first instance be made from oil feedstocks, so the trade off between pollution and farming ducks would have to be factored in.
Is down very much warmer? I'm allergic to feathers so I've never had a down duvet or pillows to judge the difference. Also to wool, which I'm told is warmer.
Down is amazing. I have a down jacket that weighs 600gms that I overheat in if the temperature is above -5.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by bjn » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:46 am

Squeak wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:37 pm
I'm astonished there aren't numbers easily available comparing weight by warmth. People quantify down loft and insulation readily and the difference between wool and down *feels* really obvious.

For the itchy among us with traumatic memories of childhood wool, I highly recommend trying the new merino thermal-type clothes. As an itchy kid, I never would have believed wool could be wearable. Now, it's just about all I wear for six months of the year. Thin wool layers with a down jacket on the outside when it's properly cold and I can be sure I'll keep the down dry. And my short sleeved wool tops get a lot of wear in summer too.
Yep. I have quite a few merino pants and t-shirts. I love them. I started using them when I did a bit of arctic mountaineering in my younger days. The pants are the best. The only problem is that they aren’t as hard wearing as cotton.

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Re: Wearing mink

Post by Squeak » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:28 am

bjn wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:46 am
Squeak wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:37 pm
I'm astonished there aren't numbers easily available comparing weight by warmth. People quantify down loft and insulation readily and the difference between wool and down *feels* really obvious.

For the itchy among us with traumatic memories of childhood wool, I highly recommend trying the new merino thermal-type clothes. As an itchy kid, I never would have believed wool could be wearable. Now, it's just about all I wear for six months of the year. Thin wool layers with a down jacket on the outside when it's properly cold and I can be sure I'll keep the down dry. And my short sleeved wool tops get a lot of wear in summer too.
Yep. I have quite a few merino pants and t-shirts. I love them. I started using them when I did a bit of arctic mountaineering in my younger days. The pants are the best. The only problem is that they aren’t as hard wearing as cotton.
But they're so much better for sweating in. And Merino fabric is utterly beautiful to sew with. It's really hard to go back to anything else now, so my sewing stash has recently got a lot more expensive. :/

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