ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

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shpalman
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ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by shpalman » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:25 pm

Just starting a new thread here for the ID cards discussion. Think this is the quote from nezumi that sparked it off...
nezumi wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:14 pm
Honestly, you have no idea how much I daily hate anti-vax types but I agree that it's extremely dodgy to start making people produce papers in the street, I'm absolutely against national ID cards f'rinstance. Others have pointed out, quite rightly, that there won't be enough vaccine for everyone for a very long time so I can only hope that I'm fairly early on in the priority list. Never mind potentially saving my life, my mental health is in the shed and getting some normality back would do wonders. Even when there is a vaccine, I suspect it'll be done like the flu vaccine. Hopefully they'll find a way to do it at the same time.
I agree on balance with not having to produce papers in the street (although I live in Italy in which it's both mandatory and convenient to have ID on you, and I have an Italian ID card) but I would also be in favour of private businesses* choosing who to let in.

I mean, nightclub bouncers get arsey about letting someone in wearing the wrong sort of jeans or trainers but suddenly when it's a matter of public health "we can't do anything we're not the police"?

See also shops and their "it's not up to us to enforce mask rules" - try shoplifting and see if the security guards feel like not doing anything about it because that's the police's job.

* - maybe not supermarkets, I mean, ignorant antivaxxers have to eat too.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by nezumi » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:50 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:25 pm

* - maybe not supermarkets, I mean, ignorant antivaxxers have to eat too.
Perhaps someone could persuade them all to become breatharians (in winter, in the UK.) It does seem they'll believe any old thing.

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:22 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:14 pm
Honestly, you have no idea how much I daily hate anti-vax types but I agree that it's extremely dodgy to start making people produce papers in the street, I'm absolutely against national ID cards f'rinstance.
I am absolutely in favour of a government-issued national ID card. Whether or not a random official can then demand to see it is a totally different matter (I'm broadly against). The conflation of these two issues has been the source of endless confusion.

For example, in every EU country (except perhaps Ireland, which still has the UK model on ID), when you go to vote, you have to show ID. Specifically, you have to show the ID that the government issued you, free of charge. Mandatory ID to vote is a *very good* idea in countries where the state issues it, just as it is a *very bad* idea in the US, or UK, where the forms of ID that are accepted tend to be associated with participation in mainstream middle-class values (driving licence, credit card, etc) and hence discriminate against people who are probably more likely to vote against establishment parties.

I cannot see any advantage to those agents of the state who need to verify my identity being in any doubt about it. In a democracy it prevents errors due to mistaken identity; meanwhile, the kinds of countries that lock people up for their political beliefs don't tend to worry too much about occasionally locking up the wrong person. Stop-and-search still happens, and is still massively skewed by race, in the UK with no ID cards. And with a card that contained their residency status, the Windrush people could have proved their entitlement to remain in the UK even after the government threw the records away. It's a decentralised physical solution, and that generally works in favour of the little people.

Apologies for the rant, but this one of the few hills I'm willing to die on. ID cards are a force for good, and do not in any way have to imply an infringement of civil liberties. As an exercise, ask any of your French or Dutch or Spanish or Italian or German friends if they think that their national ID card system should be abolished; I predict a 98% No vote.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by shpalman » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:31 pm

Common tropes about the US are firstly that the driving test is laughable compared to a European one, because being allowed to drive (starting at age 16) seems to be considered a basic right, and secondly that the DMV line is purgatory.

It cost me €5.42 to get an ID card which lasts ten years but I don't know if the new format is different.

The Blair administration had this fascination with over-technologizing everything,* the ID cards would have been fine but they seemed to want some big complicated database to go with them.

(* see also their suggestion of pay-as-you-go road tax vehicle excise duty)
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by noggins » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:39 pm

The administrative efficiency benefits are all in the id register. The card itself is a red herring.

Id just tax the antivaxxnics.

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:22 pm
I am absolutely in favour of a government-issued national ID card. Whether or not a random official can then demand to see it is a totally different matter (I'm broadly against). The conflation of these two issues has been the source of endless confusion.
Except they're not totally different - they're closely related. Without an ID card it's significantly harder to bring in rules which allow random officials to demand to know who you are as one way to oppose them is to point out the impracticality.
For example, in every EU country (except perhaps Ireland, which still has the UK model on ID), when you go to vote, you have to show ID. Specifically, you have to show the ID that the government issued you, free of charge. Mandatory ID to vote is a *very good* idea in countries where the state issues
Why is it so good? What problem is it solving that needs a solution?
I cannot see any advantage to those agents of the state who need to verify my identity being in any doubt about it.
Obviously. Because the advantage lies in frustrating those who have no need to verify your identity.
Stop-and-search still happens, and is still massively skewed by race, in the UK with no ID cards.
Yes, and with ID cards failing to have your ID becomes another thing you can use against you.

ID cards are extremely prone to abuse due to the ease of doing so. For example, they can be demanded to enforce age limits when buying alcohol, even though this is completely unnecessary.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by OneOffDave » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:35 am

shpalman wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:25 pm
I mean, nightclub bouncers get arsey about letting someone in wearing the wrong sort of jeans or trainers but suddenly when it's a matter of public health "we can't do anything we're not the police"?
See also shops and their "it's not up to us to enforce mask rules" - try shoplifting and see if the security guards feel like not doing anything about it because that's the police's job.
The railway companies have been very much like this. "We can't enforce anything like this on the trains" yet try not paying or drinking on a train they've decided is 'dry'

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by discovolante » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:12 am

OneOffDave wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:35 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:25 pm
I mean, nightclub bouncers get arsey about letting someone in wearing the wrong sort of jeans or trainers but suddenly when it's a matter of public health "we can't do anything we're not the police"?
See also shops and their "it's not up to us to enforce mask rules" - try shoplifting and see if the security guards feel like not doing anything about it because that's the police's job.
The railway companies have been very much like this. "We can't enforce anything like this on the trains" yet try not paying or drinking on a train they've decided is 'dry'
Ah, the repercussions of politicisation of public health :?
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 am
sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:22 pm
I am absolutely in favour of a government-issued national ID card. Whether or not a random official can then demand to see it is a totally different matter (I'm broadly against). The conflation of these two issues has been the source of endless confusion.
Except they're not totally different - they're closely related. Without an ID card it's significantly harder to bring in rules which allow random officials to demand to know who you are as one way to oppose them is to point out the impracticality.
Th kinds of illiberal regimes that would bring in such rules are exactly the kind that enjoy it when socially marginalised people don't have the right ID. Look at the Tories' list of proposed acceptable IDs to vote.
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 am
Why is it so good? What problem is it solving that needs a solution?
It solves the problem of people, including the marginalised, being able to show unambiguously that they are entitled to whatever the law entitles them to.
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 am
ID cards are extremely prone to abuse due to the ease of doing so. For example, they can be demanded to enforce age limits when buying alcohol, even though this is completely unnecessary.
Which bit is unnecessary? If you have age limits for buying alcohol then clearly you need a way to justify that. Of course one can argue that there should be no age limit, but I'm not aware of a single country that doesn't have one. And here again, the ID card protects your rights. Many 18 year olds don't have a driving licence and would like to buy alcohol.
noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:39 pm
The administrative efficiency benefits are all in the id register. The card itself is a red herring.
Hard disagree. Decentralising your rights and residence status on a card that you can show to a judge when Priti Patel accidentally deletes the database is the whole point. Ask the Windrush people.
noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:39 pm
Id just tax the antivaxxnics.
How? Please show your working. Start with defining the legitimate and illegitimate reasons for not having the vaccine. And then take into accounts that most refusers won't make a song and dance about it on Parler - they will just not show up to get the injection. So now you need a database of everyone in the country and whether or not they've had the vaccine, and whether that was because they had a legitimate reason (out of the country for a bit, ill, didn't receive the notice telling them where to show up), and then you somehow get HMRC to collect money from them. Good luck with that, from both a practical and a civil liberties point of view.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by nezumi » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:18 pm

I can't make up my mind on whether ID cards are OK or not! If I were to be in fvaour of an ID card scheme I'd need assurances that 1: nobody could demand it on the street 2: it's completely free of charge to all citizens 3: it would be acceptable as ID for all purposes and 4: all the data was securely kept and not accessible for any reason other than really important stuff like checking citizenship status.

Unfortunately, if it were a Tory government doing it, it would be demanded on the street by authorities with no good reason, they'd make it cost £100 plus and you'd have to redo the whole thing every 3 years at £100 a pop, it would probably look like an NI card and therefore be useless for ID and they would bugger up the IT system, leave the data in 4 separate bus terminals on an unencrypted laptop, then sell whatever's left to the highest bidder. Knowing Britain, I don't think I'd trust any government not to do it all wrong though.

Edited for spelling

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by shpalman » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:34 pm

I think the reality would be somewhere between those two extremes. Here in Italy it costs €5.42 every ten years and everyone needs to have their residency registered with the appropriate council anyway so there isn't really any additional information related to the card itself apart from everyone lying about how tall they are.

And I've only had the authorities demand to see it once in the whole time I was here, when I was waiting for a train at Milano Cadorna and they were checking everybody. But then again, not every immigrant is necessarily treated the same as me. (The police here can also stop any car they like and ask for licence and registration, they don't need a "good reason", they can just check randomly.)

So I live in the reality of having an ID card and it's fine.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by snoozeofreason » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:48 pm

nezumi wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:18 pm
I can't make up my mind on whether ID cards are OK or not! If I were to be in fvaour of an ID card scheme I'd need assurances that 1: nobody could demand it on the street 2: it's completely free of charge to all citizens 3: it would be acceptable as ID for all purposes and 4: all the data was securely kept and not accessible for any reason other than really important stuff like checking citizenship status.

Unfortunately, if it were a Tory government doing it, it would be demanded on the street by authorities with no good reason, they'd make it cost £100 plus and you'd have to redo the whole thing every 3 years at £100 a pop, it would probably look like an NI card and therefore be useless for ID and they would bugger up the IT system, leave the data in 4 separate bus terminals on an unencrypted laptop, then sell whatever's left to the highest bidder. Knowing Britain, I don't think I'd trust any government not to do it all wrong though.

Edited for spelling
I think that the role ID cards play in the British psyche is similar to that which gun laws play in the American psyche, albeit with less lethal consequences. There's a feeling that they would represent a gross infringement on our liberty and that resistance to them is seen as a demonstration of Britishness. If we lived in a country were we were never required to identify ourselves then there might be some point to all that, but we don't.

A couple of people I know got caught out over lockdown because they suddenly found that they needed ID for purposes related to benefits, but had neither a passport nor a driving licence. The resistance to ID cards doesn't mean that we can't be required to produce identification documents. It just deprives us of an easy means of acquiring them.

I share your misgivings though about having them introduced by the Tory government though. The whole process would probably get contracted out to someone who would mess it up at enormous expense.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:46 pm

nezumi wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:18 pm
I can't make up my mind on whether ID cards are OK or not! If I were to be in fvaour of an ID card scheme I'd need assurances that 1: nobody could demand it on the street 2: it's completely free of charge to all citizens 3: it would be acceptable as ID for all purposes and 4: all the data was securely kept and not accessible for any reason other than really important stuff like checking citizenship status.
I'm happy to stipulate that all of those would be part of my ID card scheme. FWIW I don't think allowing the police to ask for your ID if there are reasonable immediate grounds (e.g., "We're looking for a white man called Terry Fuckwitt, can you please show your ID to prove that you're not him?") is unreasonable, and I also think that if the police want to be c.nts they will do anyway, but it's absolutely not necessary, and I'd be happy if people were allowed to keep them at home.

In terms of the data, it would be fairly minimal, and in any case both the government and the private sector have a ton of information on you already. The main difference is that a great deal of it is currently filed under the wrong John Smith.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by bob sterman » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:07 pm

The major problem with the ID card scheme that was proposed in the UK around 2004 was not the card itself and the possibility of being asked to show it. It was the proposed accompanying database infrastructure - the National Identity Register (NIR).

The NIR was not going to just be an identity register - it was going to include records of how people use their ID cards. Identity Cards Act 2006 stated that the following could be recorded in the NIR...
Records of provision of information

The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual—

(a)particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;

(b)particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;

(c)other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
The idea was - each time the ID card was used to verify identity - this activity would get logged in a centralized database. This would have included a huge range of things - including some types of travel, some financial activities, some types of purchase. There was a suggestion that the accumulated data could be "trawled" by Police etc to identify suspicious patterns of activity.

Also you may recall the Blair government's enthusiasm for "anti-social behaviour orders" which created criminal offences that were specific to particular people. An ASBO could make it a criminal offence for a particular person to do things that are legal for everyone else - e.g. walk down a particular street, enter a pub or wear a hoodie. The ID card system and National Identity Register (NIR) was going to help facilitate enforcement of ASBOS and open up lots of new possibilities for creating bespoke restrictions on what particular people could do (anything that requires an ID check could easily be restricted).

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:15 pm

Basically what I'm proposing is like a passport (indeed, before Brexit it would have worked for EU travel), but free of charge and issued from birth (the one moment when the state has a chance to establish who you are - the idea of using your birth certificate 20 years later to get your first passport is laughable). A passport would be an alternative, but the ID card would be more practical to carry (credit card size). No tracing of its use, and no obligation to have it on you. More of a rights thing than anything else, but it would need to be compulsory to get one within, say, the first 5 years of the scheme being launched.

Next up, a proper population register, which again almost every European country manages without anyone being tortured by the secret police.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Chris Preston » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:55 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:15 pm
Basically what I'm proposing is like a passport (indeed, before Brexit it would have worked for EU travel), but free of charge and issued from birth (the one moment when the state has a chance to establish who you are - the idea of using your birth certificate 20 years later to get your first passport is laughable). A passport would be an alternative, but the ID card would be more practical to carry (credit card size). No tracing of its use, and no obligation to have it on you. More of a rights thing than anything else, but it would need to be compulsory to get one within, say, the first 5 years of the scheme being launched.

Next up, a proper population register, which again almost every European country manages without anyone being tortured by the secret police.
In the US, you have a Social Security number from birth, or from when you go to live there. This also becomes your identification for a lot of other things including your student identification number.

I do think there is a tendency for those in the bureaucracy to want to collect data just because they can. It is a bit like modellers in the biological sciences. They create a model to explore one question and then try to turn it into a model explaining how the world works. Just because it is possible to do it, doesn't mean it makes sense to do so.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:41 am

nezumi wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:18 pm
I can't make up my mind on whether ID cards are OK or not! If I were to be in fvaour of an ID card scheme I'd need assurances that 1: nobody could demand it on the street 2: it's completely free of charge to all citizens 3: it would be acceptable as ID for all purposes and 4: all the data was securely kept and not accessible for any reason other than really important stuff like checking citizenship status.
Assurances are worthless. We were assured that Brexit would lead to countries being desperate to enter into trade agreements highly favourable to the UK. You have to look at reasonably likely outcomes and disregard politicians promises.
Unfortunately, if it were a Tory government doing it, it would be demanded on the street by authorities with no good reason, they'd make it cost £100 plus and you'd have to redo the whole thing every 3 years at £100 a pop, it would probably look like an NI card and therefore be useless for ID and they would bugger up the IT system, leave the data in 4 separate bus terminals on an unencrypted laptop, then sell whatever's left to the highest bidder. Knowing Britain, I don't think I'd trust any government not to do it all wrong though.
If it gets introduced by a non-Tory government, there will inevitably eventually be a Tory government, so what you want has to be something you';re happy for a Tory government to use.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 am

...government issued national ID card...
sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 am
Why is it so good? What problem is it solving that needs a solution?
It solves the problem of people, including the marginalised, being able to show unambiguously that they are entitled to whatever the law entitles them to.
But it doesn't do that. It merely moves the problem to the marginalised obtaining and paying for their ID. The system is quite capable of doing things like rejecting their photo for being too dark in a very biased manner which means that people with dark skin get photos rejected at much greater rate than people with white skin. And that will be blamed on the computer.
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 am
ID cards are extremely prone to abuse due to the ease of doing so. For example, they can be demanded to enforce age limits when buying alcohol, even though this is completely unnecessary.
Which bit is unnecessary? If you have age limits for buying alcohol then clearly you need a way to justify that. Of course one can argue that there should be no age limit, but I'm not aware of a single country that doesn't have one. And here again, the ID card protects your rights. Many 18 year olds don't have a driving licence and would like to buy alcohol.
The bit about identifying the purchaser. If I want to buy alcohol the shopkeeper only needs to know that I am at least 18. He does not need to know my name, address, or date of birth. So, for example, an age certification card might show my picture and a big "18" certifying that the person shown is at least 18. If it's intended to be used when I'm unkown to the shopkeeper and standing in front of him, there is no need to have any other information - especially information that could be recorded to be used for other purposes.
Decentralising your rights and residence status on a card that you can show to a judge when Priti Patel accidentally deletes the database is the whole point. Ask the Windrush people.
On the contrary, when Priti Patel deletes the database, this provides extra grounds for deporting people since their ID cards must be forged since they are not in the system. It also provides extra grounds depending on how the cards work. If they're mandatory, for example, not having one is another offence to use to justify deporting them.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by dyqik » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:09 am

That last one isn't an extra ground for removal. It's one they already use.

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by bjn » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:18 pm

How would an optional identity card fly with the greater UK public? So you can ask the government for one, equivalent to a passport for ID purposes, usable in all situations where ID is needed, not tied to a creepy spying database, but you don't have to have one. All at a reasonable price (ie: free).

Best of both worlds surely?

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:26 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 am
...government issued national ID card...
sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 am
It solves the problem of people, including the marginalised, being able to show unambiguously that they are entitled to whatever the law entitles them to.
But it doesn't do that. It merely moves the problem to the marginalised obtaining and paying for their ID. The system is quite capable of doing things like rejecting their photo for being too dark in a very biased manner which means that people with dark skin get photos rejected at much greater rate than people with white skin. And that will be blamed on the computer.
1. ID cards in all European countries are either free or issued for an entirely nominal fee.

2. All modern ID card systems are based on passport technology. Black people have passports.
Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 am
The bit about identifying the purchaser. If I want to buy alcohol the shopkeeper only needs to know that I am at least 18. He does not need to know my name, address, or date of birth. So, for example, an age certification card might show my picture and a big "18" certifying that the person shown is at least 18. If it's intended to be used when I'm unkown to the shopkeeper and standing in front of him, there is no need to have any other information - especially information that could be recorded to be used for other purposes.
1. Can you name me any form of ID that is currently acceptable for buying alcohol in a UK supermarket than does not have, as a minimum, the holder's name and date of birth on it? (There is no need for an ID card to have your home address. Again, your passport doesn't.)

2. You show the card to the person on the till for 3 seconds. He or she reads the DOB and looks at you and the photo. No record is kept of the transaction. And again, *all this happens today*.
Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 am
On the contrary, when Priti Patel deletes the database, this provides extra grounds for deporting people since their ID cards must be forged since they are not in the system. It also provides extra grounds depending on how the cards work. If they're mandatory, for example, not having one is another offence to use to justify deporting them.
1. Again, modern ID cards are based on secure passport technology. If the government wants to deport me because "My card must be forged", it's up to them to convince a judge that it's forged.

2. If the cards are mandatory, the government will issue you with one, and keep a record it (you would sign to say you collected it). If you don't have one, that's the government's problem. They have to show that they took all reasonable steps to issue you with one.

Of course, you can then make up a world in which the government, the police, and the judges have all decided to deport whoever they like on a racist whim, but at that point we're not really having a discussion about ID cards any more.

I note that representatives of the 3.2 million EU citizens who have had to register to stay in the UK after Brexit are begging the government for some kind of non-electronic receipt of their registration, because at the moment all they have is an e-mail from when they filled in their details in an app.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:31 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:18 pm
How would an optional identity card fly with the greater UK public? So you can ask the government for one, equivalent to a passport for ID purposes, usable in all situations where ID is needed, not tied to a creepy spying database, but you don't have to have one. All at a reasonable price (ie: free).

Best of both worlds surely?
I like this. Over time this card (or a passport) would become the only form of ID accepted for things like voting or other government services. You could have a commission chaired by someone like David Attenborough or other national treasure to oversee the specification of the database.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by noggins » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:49 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 am

noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:39 pm
The administrative efficiency benefits are all in the id register. The card itself is a red herring.
Hard disagree. Decentralising your rights and residence status on a card that you can show to a judge when Priti Patel accidentally deletes the database is the whole point. Ask the Windrush people.
You show the judge whatever documents you had to show to get the ID card.

If you want the ID card to have magic powers then it needs an id register behind it.

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bjn
Catbabel
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Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by bjn » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:57 pm

noggins wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:49 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 am

noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:39 pm
The administrative efficiency benefits are all in the id register. The card itself is a red herring.
Hard disagree. Decentralising your rights and residence status on a card that you can show to a judge when Priti Patel accidentally deletes the database is the whole point. Ask the Windrush people.
You show the judge whatever documents you had to show to get the ID card.

If you want the ID card to have magic powers then it needs an id register behind it.
You need an ID register which would include details of the docs you used to get the card. After that it can remain fairly minimal, you don't need the register to record every interaction you have with the authorities.

ETA: you can lose the docs for whatever reason, and the id card remains valid as a result of details being on the reg.

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malbui
Clardic Fug
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Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:25 am

Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by malbui » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:17 pm

I think I've mentioned on here before that I'm very happy to carry my national ID card around with me. It simplifies everything on the occasions I need to use it: picking stuff up from the post office; voting; signing contractual stuff; wandering across borders; being stopped at roadblocks during the periods of lockdown this year. There's a quick glance at name and picture and that's it *. No referral to national databases unless the police have reason to suspect you're wanted for something or it's a serious incident. Free of charge, universally accepted, just part of our way of life.



* I should perhaps point out that the majority of gendarmes are so dense they can only really look at the pictures.
And when it starts to slide
Let it go
Leave it behind

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