ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:58 pm

You can already be stopped on the street and told to identify yourself anyway. It happened to me in Peckham last year, for instance. Cops rolled up and demanded identification and what I was doing.

Obviously they're not actually allowed to do that, and their claimed purpose - investigating an RTC - smelled like b.llsh.t as they wouldn't say where it was, I'd just walked for 30 minutes down the road they came from without seeing anything, and I obviously wasn't the driver of a white van as I was walking.

Anyway luckily I had my portuguese driving licence on me, which confused the sh.t out of them, but if I hadn't then nothing in my wallet would have proven who I was. They seemed satisfied I wasn't the kind of tan-coloured beard man they wanted to harass and f.cked off, but this idea that having ID makes police harassment more likely is misguided. They already do whatever they want, and having proper ID would make it easier to deal with. Most young people in London don't drive or walk around with their passports and utility bills.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Gfamily » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:40 pm

malbui wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:17 pm
* I should perhaps point out that the majority of gendarmes are so dense they can only really look at the pictures.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Brightonian » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:18 pm
How would an optional identity card fly with the greater UK public? So you can ask the government for one, equivalent to a passport for ID purposes, usable in all situations where ID is needed, not tied to a creepy spying database, but you don't have to have one. All at a reasonable price (ie: free).

Best of both worlds surely?
Like this you mean?
yoti-citizencard-smart-ID-card-for-over-18s.jpg
yoti-citizencard-smart-ID-card-for-over-18s.jpg (74.98 KiB) Viewed 401 times

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by bjn » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:25 pm

Brightonian wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm
bjn wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:18 pm
How would an optional identity card fly with the greater UK public? So you can ask the government for one, equivalent to a passport for ID purposes, usable in all situations where ID is needed, not tied to a creepy spying database, but you don't have to have one. All at a reasonable price (ie: free).

Best of both worlds surely?
Like this you mean?
yoti-citizencard-smart-ID-card-for-over-18s.jpg
Almost, that's not issued by the government per-se and not widely know. This is the first time I've ever heard of one. Seems to be more aimed at the young 'uns to get into a bar, the "Proof of Age" at the top not really indicating that it's a proof of identity per-se.

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:58 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:25 pm
Brightonian wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm
bjn wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:18 pm
How would an optional identity card fly with the greater UK public? So you can ask the government for one, equivalent to a passport for ID purposes, usable in all situations where ID is needed, not tied to a creepy spying database, but you don't have to have one. All at a reasonable price (ie: free).

Best of both worlds surely?
Like this you mean?
yoti-citizencard-smart-ID-card-for-over-18s.jpg
Almost, that's not issued by the government per-se and not widely know. This is the first time I've ever heard of one. Seems to be more aimed at the young 'uns to get into a bar, the "Proof of Age" at the top not really indicating that it's a proof of identity per-se.
Yeah, I had one as a teenager for buying fags and going into 16+ venues. It expired when I was 18 and a provisional driving licence was about the same price IIRC. It's definitely one of the forms of ID pubs use to this day, though the FAQ section on its website says you can also use it for internal flights in the UK. It's not free, though.

As an aside I find it super weird that people from 1999 are old enough to do anything. I remember that year! How old am I?! Horrifying ;)
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Cardinal Fang » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:34 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:07 pm
The major problem with the ID card scheme that was proposed in the UK around 2004 was not the card itself and the possibility of being asked to show it. It was the proposed accompanying database infrastructure - the National Identity Register (NIR).

The NIR was not going to just be an identity register - it was going to include records of how people use their ID cards. Identity Cards Act 2006 stated that the following could be recorded in the NIR...
Records of provision of information

The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual—

(a)particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;

(b)particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;

(c)other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
The idea was - each time the ID card was used to verify identity - this activity would get logged in a centralized database. This would have included a huge range of things - including some types of travel, some financial activities, some types of purchase. There was a suggestion that the accumulated data could be "trawled" by Police etc to identify suspicious patterns of activity.

Also you may recall the Blair government's enthusiasm for "anti-social behaviour orders" which created criminal offences that were specific to particular people. An ASBO could make it a criminal offence for a particular person to do things that are legal for everyone else - e.g. walk down a particular street, enter a pub or wear a hoodie. The ID card system and National Identity Register (NIR) was going to help facilitate enforcement of ASBOS and open up lots of new possibilities for creating bespoke restrictions on what particular people could do (anything that requires an ID check could easily be restricted).
This was precisely the reason I got involved in the No2ID campaign - because of the vast intrusive database attached to the ID card.

You're also missing out other things like the fact that part of that ID card scheme was that when you were registered you would have had to have attended a centre where you would have had biometric data like fingerprints taken, and would have had to have undergone what the Bliar Government itself said would an "intrustive interview".

Had it just been a national ID card, would have had no problem with it at all

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:57 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:34 pm
You're also missing out other things like the fact that part of that ID card scheme was that when you were registered you would have had to have attended a centre where you would have had biometric data like fingerprints taken, and would have had to have undergone what the Bliar Government itself said would an "intrustive interview".
FWIW, EU passports, apart from Irish ones (Ireland has the same sensibilities about passports that the UK does, with its association with criminal arrests), all have fingerprint data on the chip in machine-readable form. For example, in France, you collect your new passport at one of about 2,000 town halls --- typically no more than 30km from your house --- where they have a fingerprint reader, and that data is put on the chip there and then. I don't know if this is being extended to ID cards, or if a copy is kept of your fingerprints other than on the chip in the passport, or whether this proces saves you from having to give your fingerprints at the scanner when you enter the US.

I have no problem with the government having a copy of my fingerprints either. Nobody has been able to tell me what they can do with them to my disadvantage. I remember reading about a plane crash or some other disaster a few years ago where the Japanese victims were all identified within hours because all Japanese babies are fingerprinted at birth, whereas most of the other victims had to be identified from dental records, if at all.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:05 am

sTeamTraen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:26 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 am
The bit about identifying the purchaser. If I want to buy alcohol the shopkeeper only needs to know that I am at least 18. He does not need to know my name, address, or date of birth. So, for example, an age certification card might show my picture and a big "18" certifying that the person shown is at least 18. If it's intended to be used when I'm unkown to the shopkeeper and standing in front of him, there is no need to have any other information - especially information that could be recorded to be used for other purposes.
1. Can you name me any form of ID that is currently acceptable for buying alcohol in a UK supermarket than does not have, as a minimum, the holder's name and date of birth on it? (There is no need for an ID card to have your home address. Again, your passport doesn't.)
No. I can't. And that illustrates one of my objections. ID is an area where there is such severe temptation to over-reach.
2. You show the card to the person on the till for 3 seconds. He or she reads the DOB and looks at you and the photo. No record is kept of the transaction. And again, *all this happens today*.
At one time the same could have been said of car number plates. Yet now we have an extensive ANPR system that records vehicle movements.
Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 am
On the contrary, when Priti Patel deletes the database, this provides extra grounds for deporting people since their ID cards must be forged since they are not in the system. It also provides extra grounds depending on how the cards work. If they're mandatory, for example, not having one is another offence to use to justify deporting them.
1. Again, modern ID cards are based on secure passport technology. If the government wants to deport me because "My card must be forged", it's up to them to convince a judge that it's forged.
The government makes the rules. If they way that cards which cannot be found on the central register are not valid, then by definition they are not valid.
2. If the cards are mandatory, the government will issue you with one, and keep a record it (you would sign to say you collected it). If you don't have one, that's the government's problem. They have to show that they took all reasonable steps to issue you with one.
I'm mystified as to what governments you have been dealing with. It's always your fault, even when it's the government's fault. If they lose your paperwork, or the online system goes down, or there are insufficient staff so there are huge queues, then it's still your fault that you haven't done what you were told to do. Do you expect that border guards would accept excuses like that if you didn't have a pasport?
Of course, you can then make up a world in which the government, the police, and the judges have all decided to deport whoever they like on a racist whim, but at that point we're not really having a discussion about ID cards any more.
In a country which has deported its own citizens, I don't know how you can have such a rosy view.
I note that representatives of the 3.2 million EU citizens who have had to register to stay in the UK after Brexit are begging the government for some kind of non-electronic receipt of their registration, because at the moment all they have is an e-mail from when they filled in their details in an app.
That's evidence of registration, not an ID card. And, obviously, what would be better than evidence of registration would be a "friendly environment" which in contrast to the hostile environment would presume that anyone here was entitled to be here unless proven otherwise.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Blackcountryboy » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:56 am

If they bring in ID cards, I would like my old ID number, issued in 1939 - QJGE 85/3.

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:24 am

Back in the old days when there was hope and love and happiness, I wondered if the UK might join Schengen and lose the passport checks at the border. Presumably one of the biggest fears in the UK that led to us never scrapping them was about all the hordes of war-torn immigrants just waiting to invade and simultaneously take all the jobs, commit loads of crime, use up our NHS resources and claim all our benefits. I'd read (and am happy to be corrected) that ID cards of some nature might have assisted in the ability to keep tabs on who can be where - as mentioned, most of the EU countries require registration of some sort upon settling in a given locale. Certainly, though, having an ID card would be useful in many circumstances.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by shpalman » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:51 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:24 am
Back in the old days when there was hope and love and happiness, I wondered if the UK might join Schengen and lose the passport checks at the border. Presumably one of the biggest fears in the UK that led to us never scrapping them was about all the hordes of war-torn immigrants just waiting to invade and simultaneously take all the jobs, commit loads of crime, use up our NHS resources and claim all our benefits. I'd read (and am happy to be corrected) that ID cards of some nature might have assisted in the ability to keep tabs on who can be where - as mentioned, most of the EU countries require registration of some sort upon settling in a given locale. Certainly, though, having an ID card would be useful in many circumstances.
Not just registering for leave to remain to settle somewhere - Schengen requires registering whenever you spend the night somewhere. Hotels in Europe will take your ID when you check in and give it back to you the next morning.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:51 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:51 am
Not just registering for leave to remain to settle somewhere - Schengen requires registering whenever you spend the night somewhere. Hotels in Europe will take your ID when you check in and give it back to you the next morning.
Someone had better tell that to France and Germany, both of which allow you to register at a hotel without showing any ID at all. I have stayed at numerous places in both countries in the last ~30 years since the Schengen rules went into force without ever having to produce a passport; in many smaller family-run places you don't need a credit card either, just pay in cash when you leave in the morning.

From memory, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg all require ID on checking in, but that typically seems to be due to historical local legislation.

Hence how the French chain hotels are able to operate with 24-hour unattended check-in paid for with a debit card, whereas an Ibis Budget in, say, Luxembourg has someone at the desk or on call 24/7 to note your passport number. (Yes, a debit card leaves a trace, but typically you would need a court order to get the details; there isn't a connection from my Dutch Maestro card to my current UK passport number that the authorities in France could use to track me in real time.)
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Gfamily » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:59 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:51 pm
shpalman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:51 am
Not just registering for leave to remain to settle somewhere - Schengen requires registering whenever you spend the night somewhere. Hotels in Europe will take your ID when you check in and give it back to you the next morning.
Someone had better tell that to France and Germany, both of which allow you to register at a hotel without showing any ID at all. I have stayed at numerous places in both countries in the last ~30 years since the Schengen rules went into force without ever having to produce a passport; in many smaller family-run places you don't need a credit card either, just pay in cash when you leave in the morning.
The Schengen acquis wrote:Article 45

1. The Contracting Parties undertake to adopt the necessary measures in order to ensure that:

(a) the managers of establishments providing accommodation or their agents see to it that aliens accommodated therein, including nationals of the other Contracting Parties and those of other Member States of the European Communities, with the exception of accompanying spouses or accompanying minors or members of travel groups, personally complete and sign registration forms and confirm their identity by producing a valid identity document;

(b) the completed registration forms will be kept for the competent authorities or forwarded to them where such authorities deem this necessary for the prevention of threats, for criminal investigations or for clarifying the circumstances of missing persons or accident victims, save where national law provides otherwise.

2. Paragraph 1 shall apply mutatis mutandis to persons staying in any commercially rented accommodation, in particular tents, caravans and boats.
has it changed since?
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Le ... 2):en:HTML
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:03 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:59 pm
has it changed since?
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Le ... 2):en:HTML
No idea, but unless it's changed since the last time I stayed in a hotel in France (November 2019) or German (February 2020), it's been the case since 1985 (when Schengen was signed) that French and German hoteliers do not, in practice systematically (or even, as far as I can tell, occasionally) collect official photo ID on check-in. Perhaps they are massively in breach of national laws on this, or perhaps France and German are in breach of their Schengen treaty commitments; all I know is it doesn't happen, and I have frequently stayed in hotels in both countries where I booked by phone, could have given any name at all, and either paid in cash on leaving (some smaller German B&Bs don't take cards) or could have done so.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:14 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:03 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:59 pm
has it changed since?
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Le ... 2):en:HTML
No idea, but unless it's changed since the last time I stayed in a hotel in France (November 2019) or German (February 2020), it's been the case since 1985 (when Schengen was signed) that French and German hoteliers do not, in practice systematically (or even, as far as I can tell, occasionally) collect official photo ID on check-in. Perhaps they are massively in breach of national laws on this, or perhaps France and German are in breach of their Schengen treaty commitments; all I know is it doesn't happen, and I have frequently stayed in hotels in both countries where I booked by phone, could have given any name at all, and either paid in cash on leaving (some smaller German B&Bs don't take cards) or could have done so.
Its up to national governments to decide how to implement the Shengen Convention, so there could be all sorts of explanations.

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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:47 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:14 pm
Its up to national governments to decide how to implement the Shengen Convention, so there could be all sorts of explanations.
Perhaps, but the directives cited by Gfamily seemed to be pretty clear. That said, there are probably dozens of EU directives that countries "haven't quite got round to yet".
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:06 pm

To add more anecdata the few places I've stayed in Portugal have been very lax about ID. But then everything in Portugal is lax about everything, so that perhaps goes without saying ;)

And of course this is another area where Airbnb etc has a massive loophole.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by shpalman » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:24 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:06 pm
To add more anecdata the few places I've stayed in Portugal have been very lax about ID. But then everything in Portugal is lax about everything, so that perhaps goes without saying ;)
Once in Chioggia a local used the idiom "portuguese" in the context of not paying for a bus ticket.
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Re: ID cards discussion, split from Vaccine Refusers

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:47 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:24 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:06 pm
To add more anecdata the few places I've stayed in Portugal have been very lax about ID. But then everything in Portugal is lax about everything, so that perhaps goes without saying ;)
Once in Chioggia a local used the idiom "portuguese" in the context of not paying for a bus ticket.
hahaha seems fair - even coming from an Italian! ;)

Over here, "British time" means turning up on time*, rather than whenever you feel like it, and doing something "for the English to see" means ostentatiously following the rules in case somebody is looking, generally in a rather performative way.

*a stereotype I'm doing my utmost to break
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