Bad Graphs

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shpalman
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by shpalman » Fri May 19, 2023 6:03 pm

https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/ ... ytiZw&s=19
20230519_200221-01.jpeg
20230519_200221-01.jpeg (94.69 KiB) Viewed 1558 times
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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IvanV
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by IvanV » Fri May 19, 2023 6:48 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:03 pm
https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/ ... ytiZw&s=19

20230519_200221-01.jpeg
I saw a discussion of this graph somewhere else. It is supposed to be supporting an anti-immigration right-wing cause. They were trying to indicate that many migrants are getting benefits. And hence the need to have a proper hard right-winger in power rather than the present not-quite-hard-enough hard right wingers who have come into power.

What is ironic is - as Tim Bale signposts in a subsequent tweet- that it doesn't show that at all, whether you read the axes correctly or not. Benefits claimants are actually coming down as migration is recovering post-Covid.

The government was recently claiming it would get net immigration down to about 100,000. Though perhaps they can say that they meant per month.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by jaap » Fri May 19, 2023 7:02 pm

IvanV wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:48 pm
shpalman wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:03 pm
https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/ ... ytiZw&s=19

20230519_200221-01.jpeg
I saw a discussion of this graph somewhere else. It is supposed to be supporting an anti-immigration right-wing cause.
I just like the fact that the red line is not even a graph/function, seeing as it goes backwards for a bit.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by monkey » Fri May 19, 2023 7:07 pm

jaap wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 7:02 pm
IvanV wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:48 pm
shpalman wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:03 pm
https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/ ... ytiZw&s=19

20230519_200221-01.jpeg
I saw a discussion of this graph somewhere else. It is supposed to be supporting an anti-immigration right-wing cause.
I just like the fact that the red line is not even a graph/function, seeing as it goes backwards for a bit.
Graphs and functions can do that. It's just a bit rare when the x-axis is time.

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bjn
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by bjn » Fri May 19, 2023 7:09 pm

Dr Who is f.cking with the figures.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Opti » Fri May 19, 2023 7:24 pm

shpalman wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:03 pm
https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/ ... ytiZw&s=19

20230519_200221-01.jpeg
It's taken from a piece in The Sun written by the Right Wing Fascist nutter of the moment, Douglas Murray. The piece talks about loadsa immigrants encouraging feckless 'indigenous' Brits to be benefit dossers.
It's a classic sh.t graph.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by IvanV » Sun May 21, 2023 11:42 am

Opti wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 7:24 pm
shpalman wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 6:03 pm
https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/ ... ytiZw&s=19

20230519_200221-01.jpeg
It's taken from a piece in The Sun written by the Right Wing Fascist nutter of the moment, Douglas Murray. The piece talks about loadsa immigrants encouraging feckless 'indigenous' Brits to be benefit dossers.
It's a classic sh.t graph.
A lot of the benefit recipients included in the graph are people who are in work but on low wages. So that could be relieved if their wages went up substantially: that would be the only way of relieving it short of cutting their entitlement to benefits. Part of the upward pressure on wages at the moment is coming from the fact that we have substantially cut EU immigrants who might be willing to work for the wages offered. And probably benefit claimants have been coming down a bit because unemployment is low and wages have been responding to that upward pressure to some degree. But our right-wing government appears to advocate resistance to wage pressure, because of its inflationary effect.

I've just looked through the headlines of over 200 of the most recent articles on Douglas Murray's website, and only one article is about wages and incomes. Low incomes is not something he generally mentions. That one article advocates not giving in to strikers demanding higher wages, because it is not "fair" to the rest of us whose incomes are being eroded by inflation higher than wage increases. So presumably he isn't an advocate of reducing this "problem" of having many benefit recipients through higher wages for the lower paid.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Lew Dolby » Sun May 21, 2023 12:00 pm

IvanV wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 11:42 am
But our right-wing government appears to advocate resistance to wage pressure, because of its inflationary effect.
which, in itself is b-sh.t. I keep challenging tory loadmoths round here to tell me which prices will go up is state school teachers or NHS nurses get a pay rise - and to explain the mechanism they think is in play.
WOULD CUSTOMERS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SITTING ON THE COUNTER BY THE BACON SLICER - AS WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE BEHIND IN OUR ORDERS.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by IvanV » Sun May 21, 2023 1:39 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 12:00 pm
IvanV wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 11:42 am
But our right-wing government appears to advocate resistance to wage pressure, because of its inflationary effect.
which, in itself is b-sh.t. I keep challenging tory loadmoths round here to tell me which prices will go up is state school teachers or NHS nurses get a pay rise - and to explain the mechanism they think is in play.
If they knew their classical economics, they might mention that one of the three classical causes of inflation in the Keynsian model is demand-pull inflation, which can be caused by increased demand from people with more money to spend, while supply fails to increase in proportion.

Though, in the specific case you mention of public sector wage increases, if that is financed by public spending cuts elsewhere, then the effect on inflation might be broadly neutral, because of an offsetting demand reduction from those other public spending cuts. And also one should take into account their propensity to spend. Recently saving in the consumer sector has been growing, and not all additional income has been spent.

I'm entertained by your suggestion of loudmoths. A lovely idea for a fantasy novel.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by EACLucifer » Sun May 21, 2023 2:03 pm

IvanV wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 1:39 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 12:00 pm
IvanV wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 11:42 am
But our right-wing government appears to advocate resistance to wage pressure, because of its inflationary effect.
which, in itself is b-sh.t. I keep challenging tory loadmoths round here to tell me which prices will go up is state school teachers or NHS nurses get a pay rise - and to explain the mechanism they think is in play.
If they knew their classical economics, they might mention that one of the three classical causes of inflation in the Keynsian model is demand-pull inflation, which can be caused by increased demand from people with more money to spend, while supply fails to increase in proportion.

Though, in the specific case you mention of public sector wage increases, if that is financed by public spending cuts elsewhere, then the effect on inflation might be broadly neutral, because of an offsetting demand reduction from those other public spending cuts. And also one should take into account their propensity to spend. Recently saving in the consumer sector has been growing, and not all additional income has been spent.

I'm entertained by your suggestion of loudmoths. A lovely idea for a fantasy novel.
Presumably a loadmoth would look a little like a hawkmoth?

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Holylol » Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:19 pm

Image

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by dyqik » Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:40 pm

Holylol wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:19 pm
Image
There's not a graph in that image (apart from the % of the vote counted progress bar at the bottom right).

So many "bad graph" posts aren't intended to be graphs, and it's the poster interpreting graphics as a graph when it clearly isn't one.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Grumble » Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:10 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:40 pm
Holylol wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:19 pm
Image
There's not a graph in that image (apart from the % of the vote counted progress bar at the bottom right).

So many "bad graph" posts aren't intended to be graphs, and it's the poster interpreting graphics as a graph when it clearly isn't one.
True, but fair to say it’s a bad graphic. If there was an equally sized cross in a box below the tick the confusion wouldn’t arise. Apart from the confusion of No having a tick and Yes having a cross.
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by bjn » Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm

Do bar charts, however bad, not count as graphs?

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by dyqik » Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:10 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:40 pm
Holylol wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:19 pm
Image
There's not a graph in that image (apart from the % of the vote counted progress bar at the bottom right).

So many "bad graph" posts aren't intended to be graphs, and it's the poster interpreting graphics as a graph when it clearly isn't one.
True, but fair to say it’s a bad graphic. If there was an equally sized cross in a box below the tick the confusion wouldn’t arise. Apart from the confusion of No having a tick and Yes having a cross.
This is the way all CNN election results graphics are done, though. So it's not like it's an unfamiliar graphic convention.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by dyqik » Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:22 pm

bjn wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm
Do bar charts, however bad, not count as graphs?
A bar chart does. It's a graphical representation of numerical data, where the geometry of elements of the graphic represent numerical values.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by IvanV » Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:36 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:22 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm
Do bar charts, however bad, not count as graphs?
A bar chart does. It's a graphical representation of numerical data, where the geometry of elements of the graphic represent numerical values.
It is bad graphical design, rather than a bad graph.

It was not intended to be a bar chart. It just accidentally looks like one due to foolish design.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Grumble » Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:47 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm
Grumble wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:10 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:40 pm


There's not a graph in that image (apart from the % of the vote counted progress bar at the bottom right).

So many "bad graph" posts aren't intended to be graphs, and it's the poster interpreting graphics as a graph when it clearly isn't one.
True, but fair to say it’s a bad graphic. If there was an equally sized cross in a box below the tick the confusion wouldn’t arise. Apart from the confusion of No having a tick and Yes having a cross.
This is the way all CNN election results graphics are done, though. So it's not like it's an unfamiliar graphic convention.
Just lining the numbers up would be enough I think.
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by bjn » Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:35 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:22 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm
Do bar charts, however bad, not count as graphs?
A bar chart does. It's a graphical representation of numerical data, where the geometry of elements of the graphic represent numerical values.
Graphical design so bad it looks like its meant to be a bar chart. Blah. Someone needs Cluebringer upside the head.

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by monkey » Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:51 pm

IvanV wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:36 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:22 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:21 pm
Do bar charts, however bad, not count as graphs?
A bar chart does. It's a graphical representation of numerical data, where the geometry of elements of the graphic represent numerical values.
It is bad graphical design, rather than a bad graph.

It was not intended to be a bar chart. It just accidentally looks like one due to foolish design.
It might not be that bad in context. If they were doing updates of the count throughout the programme, a viewer would have presumably seen two full grey bars up until the winner was declared - obviously not a graph. When the tick appears, I doubt very many would go "Oh, that was a bar chart was it? Silly me."

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Gfamily » Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:32 pm

Misleading chart from Which? magazine - purporting to show how much more Caffeine in one 'energy' drink than in another.
Image

Meant to be showing 1.75 times more, but but showing an area that's 3 times more
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Grumble
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:23 am

Have they increased the diameter 1.75 times?
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by shpalman » Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:47 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:23 am
Have they increased the diameter 1.75 times?
But they should have only increased it 1.3 times.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by jimbob » Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:14 am

spalman wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:47 am
Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:23 am
Have they increased the diameter 1.75 times?
But they should have only increased it 1.3 times.
Also, a lot of the difference between the amount of caffeine is because one is 250ml and the other is 330ml
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Bad Graphs

Post by Gfamily » Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:04 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:23 am
Have they increased the diameter 1.75 times?
Roughly that.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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