Scrutable

Yeah, I know he is a clear and present danger to the existence of civilization as we know it. But he has also provided us with four years of amusement and outright belly laughs. It's going to be boring without him.

.

Personally I was bored of hearing about him before the 2016 election. Like, yeah, he's stupid and rude and a c.nt and I suppose it's a mildly amusing juxtaposition with government office, but does every single tweet need an article in the Guardian? Most of his foibles are enormously commonplace but people act like he's some amazing alien.

He's not gone yet though, don't worry. His memory will live on. For at least his first term, even the mildest criticism of Biden will be met with accusations that the critic is a Trump supporter, for example, so you'll get to relive your favourite Trump moments every time somebody says "Hmm well maybe Biden could have done this a bit better." Quite possibly all subsequent presidents will be considered beyond reproach so long as they clear the subterranean bar of being better than Trump.

The US has had god-awful presidents in the past and will continue to do so - somewhere on Wikipedia there's a page on "Historical Rankings of US Presidents" and it gives a table with different rankings - the last two entries cover Trump's presidency and he's still not considered the worst by one of those. We've still got plenty of time for his reputation to tarnish even further.

ETA - Harding, Johnson and Buchanan seem to be generally considered the worst - and prior to his death and all the scandals coming to light, Harding was apparently very popular.

He hasn’t committed any genocide of native Americans, or started a war with Iraq, so he has some way to go before he’s the worst.

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:37 pm

The US has had god-awful presidents in the past and will continue to do so - somewhere on Wikipedia there's a page on "Historical Rankings of US Presidents" and it gives a table with different rankings - the last two entries cover Trump's presidency and he's still not considered the worst by one of those. We've still got plenty of time for his reputation to tarnish even further.

ETA - Harding, Johnson and Buchanan seem to be generally considered the worst - and prior to his death and all the scandals coming to light, Harding was apparently very popular.

Taking Harding as an example, based on the very little I know of him, the scandals in Trumpian terms are relatively minor; some cronyism in appointments, some corruption and a single affair.

Compared to Trump's rampant and blatant nepotism, the endless grifting, the numerous affairs and outright sexual assaults, the treason, the lies, the undermining of democracy, the crashing of the economy and the out of control plague. Weighed up against a virtually non-existence record of domestic or foreign achievement its hard to see how any objective future historian could rank Harding worse than Trump.

It has certainly seemed to me that his horrible personality was a bigger issue than policy. People were, perhaps rightly, more alarmed by what he might do than by what he actually did.

There was a time long ago when I thought only clever people got to make important decisions. Over the years I've realised that it seems to be more important to have someone make decisions rather than agonise over which is best. So a psychopath or narcissist who can just make gut decisions and either not fret about the negative consequences or simply not believe there are any can be quite effective. A smart and empathetic person who can still make the tough choices would be better, but they seem to be rarer.

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:10 pm

It has certainly seemed to me that his horrible personality was a bigger issue than policy. People were, perhaps rightly, more alarmed by what he might do than by what he actually did.

The alarm played a significant role in stopping him doing stuff, so it's hard to say it was misplaced.

Particularly around the election, and the mail voting stuff.

Buchanan is probably always going to be the worst President - at worst he caused the Civil War, at best he failed to prevent the Civil War that was clearly coming (it did not begin during his Presidency but started about a month after he left).

He was also the first gay president (probably) - at least, it's clearer for him than any predecessor.

I'm really really not going to miss Donald Trump.

Anyway, he's probably going to announce his 2024 campaign before inauguration day, so he won't be out of the news for a while.

Trump signed an executive order colloquially known as the Muslim Ban which is, as far as I can tell, still in place in a revised format. This was not just the embodiment of anti-muslim rhetoric but also had real and long-lasting impacts on people. The number of refugees the US accepted was significantly reduced, and people's lives were damaged.

Trump rescinded DACA (the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program), which allowed children of undocumented immigrants who'd grown up in the US to become legal citizens.

Trump took the US out of the Paris Climate agreement and reduced fuel efficiency standards for vehicles, leading 23 states to file a lawsuit to try and prevent the rollback.

He banned transgender people from serving in the military.

He withdrew from the World Health Organisation during a global pandemic.

He reinstated the global gag rule, that prevents the US government from providing funding to any family planning organisation that provides or even offers information about abortion.

His response to Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico was completely inadequate and has led to "probable effects on long-term health and other inequities" according to a BMJ Public Health paper.

He appointed three judges to the Supreme Court, none of which were remotely qualified, and all of whom are there with the express purpose of shifting the court to the right.

He has been stacking the lower courts at an unprecedented rate with right-wing judges.

Trump reduced corporate tax rates, the benefits of which were seen only by the wealthiest (while also depriving the government of much needed tax revenue).

He oversaw the longest government shutdown in history, with long-lasting impacts.

He separated children from their parents and locked them in cages. Three years on, in October of this year, a report found that 545 children had still not been reconnected with their parents.

He withdrew the US from the Iran Nuclear Deal.

He moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, provoking riots.

That's just off the top of my head.

Oh, and of course, he gutted Obama's Pandemic-Preparedness systems and then mismanaged the coronavirus response, leading to 276k dead so far (according to google). All the while trying to destroy the Affordable Care Act to leave millions of Americans without affordable healthcare.

He's done plenty of other things too of course. He's mocked disabled people, he's mocked victims of sexual assault, he's mocked soldiers killed in combat, he's refused to condemn white supremacy, he's asked foreign powers to interfere with US elections. I could go on but honestly it's making me depressed and angry. He's done enormous damage. Some things Biden will be able to reverse pretty quickly, others will take decades to undo and some - the unnecessary deaths and the lives irrevocably changed by his actions - can never be undone.

He's not once provided me with amusement or belly laughs. He's provided me with an existential dread due to the knowledge that he's a symptom not the disease, a disease which is spreading around the globe, and getting rid of him is only the start of a very long and difficult road that may end up going nowhere if we're complacent.

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:37 pm

ETA - Harding, Johnson and Buchanan seem to be generally considered the worst - and prior to his death and all the scandals coming to light, Harding was apparently very popular.

Oh, Andrew Johnson, I forgot about him. I thought you meant Lyndon Johnson.

jaap wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:39 pm

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:37 pm

ETA - Harding, Johnson and Buchanan seem to be generally considered the worst - and prior to his death and all the scandals coming to light, Harding was apparently very popular.

Oh, Andrew Johnson, I forgot about him. I thought you meant Lyndon Johnson.

Something something something are all Johnsons dicks?

If not already subscribers, people might be interested in the WaPo's Presidential podcast, which ran in the run up to the 2016 US elections.
Initially, it ended with an assessment of Trump as the incoming President, but they have been a few additions in the last few months, most recently an assessment of Biden as President-elect.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... sidential/

A good listen, and it'll be interesting if they produce a second Trump episode to reflect on his term.

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:25 pm

... [nicely linked stuff]

He's not once provided me with amusement or belly laughs. He's provided me with an existential dread due to the knowledge that he's a symptom not the disease, a disease which is spreading around the globe, and getting rid of him is only the start of a very long and difficult road that may end up going nowhere if we're complacent.

Great post, fishy.

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:25 pm

...

He's not once provided me with amusement or belly laughs. He's provided me with an existential dread due to the knowledge that he's a symptom not the disease, a disease which is spreading around the globe, and getting rid of him is only the start of a very long and difficult road that may end up going nowhere if we're complacent.

Excellent summary. It does put the "amusement value" of his stupidity into context.

MartinDurkin wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:00 pm

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:25 pm

...

He's not once provided me with amusement or belly laughs. He's provided me with an existential dread due to the knowledge that he's a symptom not the disease, a disease which is spreading around the globe, and getting rid of him is only the start of a very long and difficult road that may end up going nowhere if we're complacent.

Excellent summary. It does put the "amusement value" of his stupidity into context.

Yep. Plus one to this.

I'm still not laughing until 21 January.

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:41 am

I'm still not laughing until 21 January.

Or beyond. He's not going to stop sh.t-stirring, and far too many people will still listen to him.

I know he's supposed to get a secret service escort for the rest of his life, but does that continue when (if) he goes to jail?

And do the secret service have to continue watching him when he returns to his Russian paymasters?

AMS wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:44 am

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:41 am

I'm still not laughing until 21 January.

Or beyond. He's not going to stop sh.t-stirring, and far too many people will still listen to him.

He's likely to start his 2024 campaign on or before inauguration day.

And the Georgia Senate run offs will affect how bad that is for the next 4 years. If the GOP holds Senate control and is in thrall to him, expect complete insanity there.

MartinDurkin wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:00 pm

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:25 pm

...

He's not once provided me with amusement or belly laughs. He's provided me with an existential dread due to the knowledge that he's a symptom not the disease, a disease which is spreading around the globe, and getting rid of him is only the start of a very long and difficult road that may end up going nowhere if we're complacent.

Excellent summary. It does put the "amusement value" of his stupidity into context.

Definitely.

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:41 am

I'm still not laughing until 21 January.

Yup.

jimbob wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:29 pm

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:41 am

I'm still not laughing until 21 January.

Yup.

If repubs keep one senator from Georgia I'll still not be able to laugh.
Cry the minority suffocated country.

MartinDurkin wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:00 pm

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:25 pm

...

He's not once provided me with amusement or belly laughs. He's provided me with an existential dread due to the knowledge that he's a symptom not the disease, a disease which is spreading around the globe, and getting rid of him is only the start of a very long and difficult road that may end up going nowhere if we're complacent.

Excellent summary. It does put the "amusement value" of his stupidity into context.

It's depressing seeing it all laid out in detail. I've been mistakenly comforting myself with the idea that his laziness and incompetence has meant his impact has been greatly reduced. I shudder to think what a genuinely charismatic and effective leader with similar leanings could do.