Legacies of the cold war

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Fishnut
After Pie
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Legacies of the cold war

Post by Fishnut » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:01 pm

This is an incredible article. It's long but well written and highly compelling. It's about the Marshall Islands and the long-lasting impacts of atom bomb testing (and conventional weapons testing, and biological weapons testing) on the islands. It begins with "the dome", a concrete nuclear waste repository built to house "more than 3.1 million cubic feet... of U.S.-produced radioactive soil and debris, including lethal amounts of plutonium."

There is so much I want to quote but I'd rather encourage people to go and read it for yourselves. It's a horror show of carelessness and outright disregard for human life. For example,
U.S. government documents from the time show that officials weighed the potential hazards of radiation exposure against “the current low morale of the natives” and a “risk of an onset of indolence.” Ultimately they decided to go forward with the resettlement so researchers could study the effects of lingering radiation on human beings.

“Data of this type has never been available,” Merrill Eisenbud, a U.S official with the Atomic Energy Commission, said at a January 1956 meeting of the agency’s Biology and Medicine Committee. “While it is true that these people do not live the way that Westerners do, civilized people, it is nonetheless also true that they are more like us than the mice.”
And that's just a small taster.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

User avatar
JQH
After Pie
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:30 pm
Location: Sar Flandan

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by JQH » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:39 pm

That is appalling.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

Fintan O'Toole

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by lpm » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:45 pm

War is bad. But cold war isn't as bad as hot war.

As some philosopher said in a nice Christmas song, war is over if you want it. Collectively we don't yet want it.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:50 pm

This is indeed appalling, but it's also very much what we should expect from the US.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by lpm » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:59 pm

Which countries on earth would we not expect it from?
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by bmforre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:02 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:59 pm
Which countries on earth would we not expect it from?
Japan.
That country is sensitive regarding debris from nuclear explosions.

secret squirrel
Snowbonk
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:59 pm
Which countries on earth would we not expect it from?
Cuba for one.

User avatar
Martin Y
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3088
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by Martin Y » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:34 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:30 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:59 pm
Which countries on earth would we not expect it from?
Cuba for one.
Cuba got a note through their door saying the Soviets tried to deliver their nuclear arsenal but they were out.

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by bmforre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:36 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:30 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:59 pm
Which countries on earth would we not expect it from?
Cuba for one.
Uruguay and many others.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by lpm » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:45 pm

What the f.ck? Thinking Cuba is not "a horror show of carelessness and outright disregard for human life"? You are deluded and need help.

Uruguay? While the US was callously polluting the Marshall Islands, Uruguay was a military regime that disappeared political opponents.

What planet are you guys living on?
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by bmforre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:05 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:45 pm
What the f.ck? Thinking Cuba is not "a horror show of carelessness and outright disregard for human life"? You are deluded and need help...
How come Cuba produce so many doctors and have such respectable health outcomes?

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by bmforre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:13 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:45 pm
Uruguay? While the US was callously polluting the Marshall Islands, Uruguay was a military regime that disappeared political opponents.

CIA World Factbook:
"Civilian rule was ... restored ... 1985.
Uruguay's political and labor conditions are among the freest on the continent."

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by bmforre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:31 pm

From newer political history of Uruguay:
José Mujica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
José Alberto "Pepe" Mujica Cordano (Spanish pronunciation: [xoˈse muˈxika]; born 20 May 1935) is a Uruguayan farmer and retired politician who served as the 40th President of Uruguay from 2010 to 2015. A former guerrilla with the Tupamaros, he was imprisoned for 12 years during the military dictatorship in the 1970s and 1980s. A member of the Broad Front coalition of left-wing parties, Mujica was Minister of Livestock, Agriculture, and Fisheries from 2005 to 2008 and a Senator afterwards. As the candidate of the Broad Front, he won the 2009 presidential election and took office as President on 1 March 2010.

He has been described as "the world's humblest head of state" due to his austere lifestyle and his donation of around 90 percent of his $12,000 monthly salary to charities that benefit poor people and small entrepreneurs...

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by lpm » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:51 pm

You know the cold war ended in 1991, right?

Spoiler:
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

monkey
After Pie
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by monkey » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:05 pm

bmforre wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:02 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:59 pm
Which countries on earth would we not expect it from?
Japan.
That country is sensitive regarding debris from nuclear explosions.
Not explosions, but Japan wants to release massive amounts of contaminated water into the Pacific, diluting it first, but a thing that will take 30 years to complete. At least it's the local water?

User avatar
jimbob
Light of Blast
Posts: 5301
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by jimbob » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:20 pm

bmforre wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:13 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:45 pm
Uruguay? While the US was callously polluting the Marshall Islands, Uruguay was a military regime that disappeared political opponents.

CIA World Factbook:
"Civilian rule was ... restored ... 1985.
Uruguay's political and labor conditions are among the freest on the continent."
We are talking about 1956. We know that the UK was busy exposing its own servicemen to atomic tests - and killing/maiming some volunteers in nerve agent tests at Porton Down at this time.


If we're talking about now. Several countries spring to mind. New Zealand is probably unlikely to, for example. Costa Rica doesn't have a military.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

AMS
Snowbonk
Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:14 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by AMS » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:08 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:51 pm
You know the cold war ended in 1991, right?

Spoiler:
Tell that to the ex-KGB officer (East Berlin station) who currently lives in the Kremlin.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by lpm » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:50 pm

Right. Even with only a fraction of the emnities of the Cold War, all countries still face strategic enemies and need solutions that will protect themselves.

Which brings up the question of what should "good" countries do when threatened or damaged by "bad" countries? Ties nicely to John le Carré and what immoral acts should agents of democracies do against agents of totalitarian states.

The answer for every country is to do some pretty bad sh.t to protect their lives, prosperity and liberty.

Even nice little New Zealand teamed up with the US in the ANZUS military alliance, went to war against North Korea/China and killed Commie guerrillas in Malaysia. At home Commies were watched, arrested and driven out of government jobs.

Even nice little Costa Rica flirted with the Soviets and flirted with the Americans, getting entangled in the Cold War and for example turning a blind eye to anti-Castro training camps for Cuban exiles.

Due to its sheer scale, a superpower like the US was going to do more sh.t than a little country and it's going to involve nukes rather than AK-47s, but I simply don't believe you'll find a single country during the Cold War that didn't do its bit of carelessness and outright disregard for human life.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

User avatar
shpalman
Princess POW
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond
Contact:

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by shpalman » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:54 pm

You had me at dicks f.ck a..holes.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
@shpalman@mastodon.me.uk

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:26 pm

Obviously it's appalling and indefensible to have done that.

The combination of racism and nuclear-testing-on-foreign-civilians does seem part of a typical pattern for the US specifically - which isn't to say that other countries don't do bad things, as lpm is trying to suggest with her boring straw man there.

The list of countries I'd be a bit surprised if they'd done something like this is quite long, actually. The list where I'd be like "hmm sounds about right" is a lot shorter: USA, UK (though probably not on its own), China, France, Russia/USSR. Who am I missing? You need places that develop weapons of mass destruction, have overseas territories etc. at all (which is actually pretty unusual, globally speaking) and whose interactions with the world are mediated via a belief in racial/cultural superiority.

I'm sure the Spanish and Portuguese would have done it when they were expanding their empires, for example, but that was a long time ago so their opportunities for biological warfare were much smaller.

Morally, I don't think testing weapons on your 'enemies' - internal or external - is any better, but it is a lot more usual geopolitically AFAICT.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

bmforre
Snowbonk
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by bmforre » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:42 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:26 pm
I'm sure the Spanish and Portuguese would have done it when they were expanding their empires, for example, but that was a long time ago so their opportunities for biological warfare were much smaller.
See Jared Diamond "Guns, Germs and Steel".

User avatar
jimbob
Light of Blast
Posts: 5301
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by jimbob » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:49 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:50 pm
Right. Even with only a fraction of the emnities of the Cold War, all countries still face strategic enemies and need solutions that will protect themselves.

Which brings up the question of what should "good" countries do when threatened or damaged by "bad" countries? Ties nicely to John le Carré and what immoral acts should agents of democracies do against agents of totalitarian states.

The answer for every country is to do some pretty bad sh.t to protect their lives, prosperity and liberty.

Even nice little New Zealand teamed up with the US in the ANZUS military alliance, went to war against North Korea/China and killed Commie guerrillas in Malaysia. At home Commies were watched, arrested and driven out of government jobs.

Even nice little Costa Rica flirted with the Soviets and flirted with the Americans, getting entangled in the Cold War and for example turning a blind eye to anti-Castro training camps for Cuban exiles.

Due to its sheer scale, a superpower like the US was going to do more sh.t than a little country and it's going to involve nukes rather than AK-47s, but I simply don't believe you'll find a single country during the Cold War that didn't do its bit of carelessness and outright disregard for human life.
There was a reason why I said, "If we're talking about now"
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:57 pm

bmforre wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:42 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:26 pm
I'm sure the Spanish and Portuguese would have done it when they were expanding their empires, for example, but that was a long time ago so their opportunities for biological warfare were much smaller.
See Jared Diamond "Guns, Germs and Steel".
Indeed - or Eduardo Galeano's Open Veins of Latin America, written by an Uruguayan journalist who was sentenced to death (in absentia) by the dictatorship. It's a postcolonial history of the continent showing quite clearly how the US stepped into the gap left by the retreating European colonial powers to continue a similar story of oppression and exploitation by other means.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:01 pm

I wonder how much of the current tendency to divide the world into teams ultimately derives from the Cold War's for-us-or-against-us rhetoric. As lpm exemplifies, there's a tendency to think "Oooo, so-and-so is criticising the testing of radioactive weapons on the Marshall Islanders, they must think Stalin is a great guy," or to try to imply they don't understand why wars happen in general, and similar stupidity. In fact, criticising both the USSR's and USA's foreign policy during the Cold War would be an entirely consistent position to hold, but a lot of people would seem to prefer that we ignore the faults of one team if we decide that in the round they're 'better' in one way or another.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Legacies of the cold war

Post by lpm » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:48 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:49 pm
There was a reason why I said, "If we're talking about now"
I don't think you're allowed to do that.

If you look at the current world with very low threat levels you can say "Isn't New Zealand nice" and "Costa Rica doesn't have a military". But what does that tell us about the nature of the two countries, except under the low threat environment?

New Zealanders went off to foreign countries before to kill Commie insurgents. Can't point to their lack of Commie killing now, because is that because New Zealand has gone nice or because there aren't any Commies?
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

Post Reply