Where is politics going?

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Stephanie
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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Stephanie » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:04 pm

discovolante wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:23 am
I dunno why I keep coming back to this thread but hey ho.

Can I also make the point that inequality, rather than being some daft non issue that is only a problem because poor people are emotionally defective*, is what leads us to dumping all our rubbish and toxic waste where they live, ignoring the many many sh.tty energy inefficient houses, allowing air pollution to increase and so on, because they're only problems that affect poor people 'over there somewhere' until they become everyone's problem. I mean that's a terrible reason for caring about it but hey.
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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by bmforre » Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:57 am

US politics is going on Great Chase after Voting Fraud in order to remove power to vote from people liable to misuse this by voting for anti-Trump and similar abominations.

I am impressed by this:
Could face 20 years in prison because he voted while on parole.
Hervis Rogers was so intent on casting a ballot in last year’s presidential primary that he waited six hours to vote ...

More than a year later, Rogers was arrested on charges that he voted in last year’s Democratic primary while on parole. Under Texas law, it is illegal for a felon to “knowingly” vote while still serving a sentence, including parole. Doing so is a second-degree felony, punishable with a minimum of two years and a maximum of 20 years in prison. In at least 20 states, Rogers’s alleged vote would not be a crime.
Inspector Javert may be dead but his spirit walks abroad:
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, who ordered the arrest, defended the charges on social media Friday night, tweeting, “Hervis is a felon rightly barred from voting under TX law . . . I prosecute voter fraud everywhere we find it!
Coincidentally
Critics ... questioned the timing of Rogers’s arrest last Wednesday, a day before the Texas Legislature convened for a special session to consider new voting restrictions that Democrats blocked in May. The legislation — one of the most far-reaching election proposals in the country — would, among other things, enact new criminal penalties for mistakes ...
I believe these powermad prosecutors don't need to collaborate with Lukashenko on cooking up charges against opponents seeing they have a richness, nay surfeit, of own ideas.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Lew Dolby » Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:03 pm

really have trouble understanding the politics of the USA. Why is voting in a primary of any concern to the authorities ?? Surely, it should be just down to the party in question to set the rules.

[ps I realise the answer is " it just is "
]
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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by bmforre » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:11 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:03 pm
really have trouble understanding the politics of the USA ...
Iffandwhen reason is not your friend try Highest Authority and Mightfullest Power.
With loud music, heavy drums thundering over reason and empathy.

like Mercy Culture Church
The church is called Mercy Culture, and it is part of a growing Christian movement that is nondenominational, openly political and has become an engine of former president Donald Trump’s Republican Party. It includes some of the largest congregations in the nation, housed in the husks of old Baptist churches, former big-box stores and sprawling multimillion-dollar buildings with private security to direct traffic on Sundays. Its most successful leaders are considered apostles and prophets, including some with followings in the hundreds of thousands, publishing empires, TV shows, vast prayer networks, podcasts, spiritual academies, and branding in the form of T-shirts, bumper stickers and even flags. It is a world in which demons are real, miracles are real, and the ultimate mission is not just transforming individual lives but also turning civilization itself into their version of God’s Kingdom: one with two genders, no abortion, a free-market economy, Bible-based education, church-based social programs and laws such as the ones curtailing LGBTQ rights now moving through statehouses around the country.
Note that by "a free-market economy" is meant one serving the richest and most powerful.

It should be below belief but many embrace it. Horrible.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Martin_B » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:14 am

bmforre wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:11 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:03 pm
really have trouble understanding the politics of the USA ...
Iffandwhen reason is not your friend try Highest Authority and Mightfullest Power.
With loud music, heavy drums thundering over reason and empathy.

like Mercy Culture Church
The church is called Mercy Culture, and it is part of a growing Christian movement that is nondenominational, openly political and has become an engine of former president Donald Trump’s Republican Party. It includes some of the largest congregations in the nation, housed in the husks of old Baptist churches, former big-box stores and sprawling multimillion-dollar buildings with private security to direct traffic on Sundays. Its most successful leaders are considered apostles and prophets, including some with followings in the hundreds of thousands, publishing empires, TV shows, vast prayer networks, podcasts, spiritual academies, and branding in the form of T-shirts, bumper stickers and even flags. It is a world in which demons are real, miracles are real, and the ultimate mission is not just transforming individual lives but also turning civilization itself into their version of God’s Kingdom: one with two genders, no abortion, a free-market economy, Bible-based education, church-based social programs and laws such as the ones curtailing LGBTQ rights now moving through statehouses around the country.
Note that by "a free-market economy" is meant one serving the richest and most powerful.

It should be below belief but many embrace it. Horrible.
I'm recall an episode of Yes Minister (I think, or possibly West Wing) where they gave a position paper a name which included something like Social Security so that the paper then didn't have to include anything about it in the content.

I'm reminded of that by an organisation calling itself the Mercy Culture Church when it appears to believe in nothing remotely like mercy.
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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by jimbob » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:37 am

monkey wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:56 pm
shpalman wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:18 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:13 pm




From yesterday's Guardian online
"jealousy" in Italian applies to something you have which you don't want anyone else to have.
I'm pretty sure I've seen jealous used in a similar way in English too: a jealous boyfriend would be overprotective or overly suspicious of their partner cheating on them, or a jealous king would be the same with their power.

Yup.
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Martin Y
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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:49 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:37 am
Yup.
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
That's a curiously polytheistic bits of bible which somehow survived later edits.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by jimbob » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:56 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:49 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:37 am
Yup.
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
That's a curiously polytheistic bits of bible which somehow survived later edits.
There are quite a few. Pharaoh's priests performed magic but Moses performed stronger magic, being the first to spring to mind.

It makes more internal sense if you imagine it was originally Monaltry with a flat-Earth worldview.

Genesis has God either talking to himself or speaking to other deities. And then there's the book of Job, where God bets with the Adversary.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Lew Dolby » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:19 pm

and the ten commandments - "thou shall have no other gods before me"
If you bring you kids up to think for themselves, you can't complain when they do

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by lpm » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:21 pm

Christianity is a polytheistic religion with all sorts of mad theology trying to cover up the fact. A magic ghost, a mother deity, earthly humans promoted to deity status and given special powers, an evil deity fighting the good deity... It's more profitable to be a polytheism - people hand over their money to buy protection from several different gods rather than just pay off the one.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Trinucleus » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:00 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:19 pm
and the ten commandments - "thou shall have no other gods before me"
Several of the commandments are more about brand loyalty than morality

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by bmforre » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:27 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:56 pm
... there's the book of Job, where God bets with the Adversary.
Those gamblers try it again in Faust.

Wonder how Brand-One God feels about Goethe?

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by jimbob » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:31 pm

bmforre wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:27 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:56 pm
... there's the book of Job, where God bets with the Adversary.
Those gamblers try it again in Faust.

Wonder how Brand-One God feels about Goethe?
Yes but that's fanfic.

Actually that works quite well. Only Marvel and DCU tend to retcon things rather than just leaving all the mutually-contradictory stuff in place.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by IvanV » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:45 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:00 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:19 pm
and the ten commandments - "thou shall have no other gods before me"
Several of the commandments are more about brand loyalty than morality
It was only around about 6th century BCE that the Israelites got the idea that Yahweh was the only god. Before that, Yahweh was merely pre-eminent among the various gods that the polytheistic Israelites worshipped alongside Yahweh, and also above foreign gods. So "no other gods before me" meant quite literally, "make me number one among the gods you worship", at time it was first drafted. Then it was repurposed to mean something else. Then the Christians borrwed it and repurposed it again, in diverse ways. The great diversity of theologies that early Christians had, before Constantine brought Christianity into the Roman Empire resulting in its considerable uniformisation over a large area, is rarely discussed. More recently, it has become very diverse again, with different sects placing different stress on different parts of the extensive and extensively contradictory scriptures.

Brand loyalty is certainly very much what many religions wish to achieve. It was certainly a major obsession of the period described in the Old Testament. Though Judaism today seems to have remarkable diversity for a religion with such a relatively small number of adherents.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:02 pm

It's a good example of the natural selection pressures on memes - a religion that encourages brand loyalty will tend to outlast one that doesn't.
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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by dyqik » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:16 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:02 pm
It's a good example of the natural selection pressures on memes - a religion that encourages brand loyalty will tend to outlast one that doesn't.
It's pretty basic economics. Add value by inventing value out of whole cloth.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by lpm » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 pm

I think there's something fundamental to answer about why neither the US or UK went properly populist.

Or at least I don't understand it.

The direction of travel was all pointing towards true popularist leaders, bribing key sections of the electorate while embedding long term power. But everything fizzles out.

The NHS pay rise is such a classic example. "They've recommended 3% but our wonderful NHS workers deserve even more. Which is why long ago I gave them 4%" vs "You're getting 1%, not a penny more. Oh they've recommended 3%. Damn it, you've forced my hand, I suppose I have to grudgingly accept that."

What it the fundamental constraint that stops Johnson from picking popular options? It's not because he can't see them and he's not an idiot. The real person of Johnson knows about bread and circuses, the invented character of Boris is even more in tune with popular publicity stunts. In the age of gesture politics, why are we seeing as many damaging gestures as popular gestures?
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by WFJ » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 pm
In the age of gesture politics, why are we seeing as many damaging gestures as popular gestures?
Piss-ups and breweries spring to mind.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by dyqik » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:32 pm

WFJ wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:30 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 pm
In the age of gesture politics, why are we seeing as many damaging gestures as popular gestures?
Piss-ups and breweries spring to mind.
I think it's because we're also in the age of nihilistic political tribalists celebrating damaging gestures as making the other side cry.

For a lot of vocal right wing supporters (and to a somewhat lesser extent on the left, imo), it doesn't matter if something hurts them as long as it makes the other side angry.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by jdc » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:04 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 pm
The NHS pay rise is such a classic example. "They've recommended 3% but our wonderful NHS workers deserve even more. Which is why long ago I gave them 4%" vs "You're getting 1%, not a penny more. Oh they've recommended 3%. Damn it, you've forced my hand, I suppose I have to grudgingly accept that."

What it the fundamental constraint that stops Johnson from picking popular options?
Maybe on this occasion his hatred of healthcare workers outweighed his love of populism?

Either that or his focus groups need tweaking.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by Sciolus » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 pm

My instinct is to ask, what do the party's paymasters want? But I don't think that really helps understand many of this government's policies either.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by plodder » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:59 am

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:32 pm
WFJ wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:30 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 pm
In the age of gesture politics, why are we seeing as many damaging gestures as popular gestures?
Piss-ups and breweries spring to mind.
I think it's because we're also in the age of nihilistic political tribalists celebrating damaging gestures as making the other side cry.

For a lot of vocal right wing supporters (and to a somewhat lesser extent on the left, imo), it doesn't matter if something hurts them as long as it makes the other side angry.
It’s this, and it’s born from ennui. It’s because, fundamentally, the people in charge have stopped having ideas and are basically treading water.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by noggins » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:18 am

Why bother being full populist when youve got an 80 seat majority?
Last edited by noggins on Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by noggins » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:19 am

& bojo is lazy

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Re: Where is politics going?

Post by lpm » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:48 am

The UK vaccine rollout shows how popularism should be working. Get one triumph and use it as a shield. Just shout it out as a response to everything.

"Why did you let Delta in from India -"
"VACCINE TRIUMPH!"
"When will a public enquiry -"
"VACCINE TRIUMPH!"
"The awarding of PPE contracts -"
"VACCINE TRIUMPH!"

Surely popular gestures mean you don't need proper ideas? And you can make the other side suffer to the delight of your side because your shield protects you from the reverse. And your party's paymasters can get on with their goals, getting lucrative privatised NHS contracts for example, under cover of the shield.

Across the country, people genuinely believe "Boris" got most things right in the pandemic because they've heard so often about the vaccination rollout. And it's an easily understood thing, unlike complex f.ck ups like care home policy. People love it. And it's permanently entered our herd memory and will guarantee a load of votes in 3 years time.

A pay rise for nurses is also easy to articulate to the electorate - do it once, repeatedly shout about it, then use it to shout down any criticism of your NHS policy:

"You awarded hospital contracts to your cronies -"
"GAVE NURSES 5%!"
"£250 billion of NHS spend is being outsourced -"
"GAVE NURSES 5%!"
"Awarding the top NHS job to your friend's son -"
"GAVE NURSES 5%!"

Johnson knows the technique works because he won the last election with a landside because he shouted down everything with "GOT BREXIT DONE". So there's something strange about him failing to repeat previous successes. The next election is only 3 years away - this sort of thing needs to be done early and deeply established as an immovable belief in the electorate by the time an election comes along.

I worry when I can't figure out an opponent's strategy.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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