Brexit Consequences

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sheldrake
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:19 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:12 am
It said "almost 64% of industrial firms complaining about shortages in materials" - this is not the same as the frozen food or meat sections of the the supermarket almost completely empty.
No it isn't, but as the frozen food and meat sections of the supermarkets I regularly visit aren't empty I didn't see a need to demonstrate that. Shortages are shortages. We know from hard data that the trucker shortfall exists across Europe.
Although if those empty shelf photos from Britain were just issues of shelf stackers being too slow* then it would suggest there was actual panic-buying going on which I don't think has been the case with food as it is with fuel.

* - or maybe they can't get the staff either

The British situation happens to be on the TV news here now. Ha. Let me know if the BBC shows "similar scenes in (the rest of) Europe" when they report on the empty supermarkets and queues at petrol stations.
Have you considered the possibility that the media is whipping up hysteria through a sad interaction between the need for outrage clicks and an entrenched need to say 'told you so!' by the large number of people who were very vocally opposed to brexit who work in newspapers and TV ?

These are the same sources that will spin 'small group of economists believe economy could hypothetically have grown even more' into 'economy has declined', after all.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Gfamily » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:29 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:16 am
If you don't bother reading things the first time they're posted before you reply, I've no reason to believe you will the second time, and it just creates pointless little bits of extra work for me to keep reposting stuff.
The problem is that when I read the links you posted, they don't support the argument you're trying to make (that the problems being experienced in UK are common across the rest of Europe).

I wondered if there was some link that does support your argument, but clearly not.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:15 am

I vaguely remember something happening in that bit of Germany in July...
Citing Poland was already stretching the definition of "Western Europe" a bit. Those are places facing particular covid spikes and resulting lockdowns and resulting resulting panic buying; if covid is your reason for why England has the same problem except it doesn't have the same problem, then you need a lockdown too, and it's your government's fault for not implementing one.
Last edited by shpalman on Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin_B
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Martin_B » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:17 am

So a German freezer unit which is obviously empty because the freezer is turned off (you can tell by the condensation).

A single empty shelf area in a single seven-11 in Thailand.

And a Sydney supermarket with empty toilet roll shelves which is due to Covid lockdown panic buying (even the photo caption admits this).

And you think these photos support your argument that elsewhere *in Europe* is suffering from shortages? Try again, Einstein.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:19 am

There have been food shortages related to Covid lockdowns reported in Germany going back into 2020. Obv Australia and Thailand aren't in Western Europe, but I'm underlining that this is a global phenomenon. This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Martin_B » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:19 am
There have been food shortages related to Covid lockdowns reported in Germany going back into 2020. Obv Australia and Thailand aren't in Western Europe, but I'm underlining that this is a global phenomenon. This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
But certainly the Sydney one is due to Covid panic buying, and not the sort of shortage being talked about in the UK at all.

So your "evidence" is a single almost empty shelf unit in a 7-11 in Thailand. To be honest, most 7-11s in Australia look like that on a Saturday night.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:40 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:19 am
There have been food shortages related to Covid lockdowns reported in Germany going back into 2020. Obv Australia and Thailand aren't in Western Europe, but I'm underlining that this is a global phenomenon. This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
All of Europe might have had panic buying at the beginning of 2020, that's not the same as saying other places are as bad as Britain is now.

Of course it might not be because of Brexit, and be just that the country is being run really badly in general.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:50 am

Bad news for residents of Grimsby: you live in Grimsby.

But the situation in the supermarket doesn't seem too bad. Mainly chicken which isn't there.

I'm not cherry picking, just relaying the reports from the local news I follow because it's the area of the country I'm from and/or have family in.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by plodder » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:50 am

sheldrake said
This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
but the guardian doesn't say it's all because of Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ain-crisis

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:51 am

Martin_B wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am
sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:19 am
There have been food shortages related to Covid lockdowns reported in Germany going back into 2020. Obv Australia and Thailand aren't in Western Europe, but I'm underlining that this is a global phenomenon. This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
But certainly the Sydney one is due to Covid panic buying, and not the sort of shortage being talked about in the UK at all.
When you say ‘being talked about’ do you mean ‘what Guardian editorial claims?’

Trucker shortages are all over Europe. Supply chain problems are all over Europe. I’m saying these shortages are largely a consequence of covid lockdowns.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:53 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:50 am
sheldrake said
This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
but the guardian doesn't say it's all because of Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ain-crisis
The article blames immigration policy (as a brexit consequence) because industry groups who dont want to increase wages always lobby for higher immigration and the Guardian is there to help. Immigration to the UK is up overall, but I’m very comfortable for trucker wages to increase to divert labour out of unproductive admin roles etc..

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:03 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:51 am
Martin_B wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am
sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:19 am
There have been food shortages related to Covid lockdowns reported in Germany going back into 2020. Obv Australia and Thailand aren't in Western Europe, but I'm underlining that this is a global phenomenon. This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
But certainly the Sydney one is due to Covid panic buying, and not the sort of shortage being talked about in the UK at all.
When you say ‘being talked about’ do you mean ‘what Guardian editorial claims?’

Trucker shortages are all over Europe. Supply chain problems are all over Europe. I’m saying these shortages are largely a consequence of covid lockdowns.
Europe isn't in lockdown.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:04 pm

There are still people being ordered to self-isolate and the training and testing shortages last year affect staffing this year.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Chris Preston » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:05 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:51 am
Martin_B wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am
sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:19 am
There have been food shortages related to Covid lockdowns reported in Germany going back into 2020. Obv Australia and Thailand aren't in Western Europe, but I'm underlining that this is a global phenomenon. This 'it's all because of Brexit!' narrative the Guardian is peddling is b.llsh.t.
But certainly the Sydney one is due to Covid panic buying, and not the sort of shortage being talked about in the UK at all.
When you say ‘being talked about’ do you mean ‘what Guardian editorial claims?’

Trucker shortages are all over Europe. Supply chain problems are all over Europe. I’m saying these shortages are largely a consequence of covid lockdowns.
There are no trucker shortages for toilet paper in Sydney. The issue is with panic buying. Toilet paper is a bulky item. Restocking takes more trips than would be the case for less bulky items. The same number of truckers that worked when there were no shortages are working now - truckers are exempt from the lockdown. People are just buying a lot more than they normally do. Some supermarkets have sold six months worth of toilet paper in a few weeks.

It is a pretty facile argument.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:07 pm

And to what extent do you think media-triggered panic buying might be affecting the UK?

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Chris Preston » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:08 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:07 pm
And to what extent do you think media-triggered panic buying might be affecting the UK?
You were the one who brought in the example of shelves empty of toilet paper in Sydney to support your argument about the UK, not me.

I am just here to point out what a facile argument it was.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Its not a facile argument though. Shortages are world wide and caused by covid. Saying ‘its different in the UK because in Australia it was *just panic buying due to covid*’ doesnt make any sense from my perspective.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Chris Preston » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:20 pm

Of course it is a facile argument. Attempting to claim that empty toilet paper shelves in Australia are due to atrucker shortage is complete nonsense. It is due to hoarding (politely called panic buying here). I mean three minutes of research would have shown that.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:22 pm

There aren't shortages* here, but then we have less covid than you do, because your government chose to let it run rampant "to help the economy" which meant everyone got pang off the app and has to self-isolate, shutting down the economy.

* - in terms of supermarket food

Oh and Brexit has left you less resilient and flexible in terms of access to labour and materials.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by lpm » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:24 pm

Brexit is a co-morbidity.

It's why other countries are able to shake off Covid disruption without too much impact while Britain suffers multiple symptoms.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:26 pm

Chris Preston wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:20 pm
Of course it is a facile argument. Attempting to claim that empty toilet paper shelves in Australia are due to atrucker shortage is complete nonsense. It is due to hoarding (politely called panic buying here). I mean three minutes of research would have shown that.
I didnt say it was due to a trucker shortage *in australia*. I said covid policy has affected supply chains world wide, which it has. There are panic-buying effects in the UK too, partly driven by media outlets like the guardian which are only too happy to shout ‘fire’ if they think it will vindicate their brexit predictions.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:27 pm

lpm wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:24 pm
It's why other countries are able to shake off Covid disruption without too much impact
This just isnt true though lpm.

Our vaccine program is a very clear refutation of the idea that brexit left us ‘less able to adapt’.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by lpm » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:07 pm

Huh?

The success of the vaccine program meant the UK could unlockdown a month or two earlier than our EU competitors.

So you're arguing against yourself. The UK has had a bit longer to restart driving tests, begin HGV training again, get people off furlough and back to work. The economic quakes still rippling through the system should be easier for the UK than most places. But guess what, no, the country's still economically ill from Covid.

Own goal mate, the goal you should be shooting at is the other end of the pitch.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:11 pm

And of course that vaccine "success" has translated into a higher case rate and a higher death rate than most of the rest of Europe but still you obviously don't have the benefits of lack of covid restrictions if your supply chains are so screwed compared to the rest of Europe.

Anyway most of Europe has caught up with, or overtaken, the UK's vaccination coverage now.
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