Brexit Consequences

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6774
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:55 am

Brexit: this is not just a protest vote. It's a dirty protest vote.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
Gfamily
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2895
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Gfamily » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:40 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:55 am
Brexit: this is not just a protest vote. It's a dirty protest vote.
d'eau!
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 6774
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:46 am

From a Boris Johnson parody account on Twitter:
Unfortunately, we can no longer buy sewage treatment chemicals because of Brexit, so we will now be dumping untreated sewage into your drinking water... What? Don't look at me like that! You were quite happy to swallow my sh.t when I put it on the side of a bus!
https://twitter.com/GetBrexit_Done/stat ... 41348?s=19
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

IvanV
Snowbonk
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by IvanV » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:37 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:05 am
Good news everyone - water companies are now allowed to dump (even more) raw sewage into surface and groundwater!
Normally, you need a permit under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016 to discharge treated effluent from a waste water treatment works (WwTW) to surface water or groundwater. Permits contain conditions that control the quality of the effluent you can discharge.

You may not be able to comply with your permit if you cannot get the chemicals you use to treat the effluent you discharge because of:

the UK’s new relationship with the EU
coronavirus (COVID-19)
other unavoidable supply chain failures, for example the failure of a treatment chemical supplier

If you follow the conditions in this regulatory position statement (RPS) you can discharge effluent without meeting the conditions in your permit.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... lure-rps-b

Brexit Britain is literally up sh.t creek.

Given that the government is deliberately liberalising water quality regs to allow water companies to dump more sh.t without getting caught and fined, I don't think I'm being overly cynical suggesting that the long-term intention is to grandfather this kind of relaxation into permanent regs.
This has resulted in the last watercress farm in the Chilterns closing. The section of the river Chess around the cress beds also supports close to the entire Chiltern population of water voles, and so is of considerable ecological significance.

The farm traditionally grew cress in the water of the river Chess, which (mostly) rises about 8km away from some large springs on the west side of Chesham. About 3km downstream of the source is Chesham sewage works, which also serves the north side of Amersham, and which has long discharged treated water into the river. In prolonged dry conditions, the aquifers become less productive, and the output of the sewage works can provide more than half the river's flow downstream of the works. In conditions of heavy rain, the sewage works can become overwhelmed and they are permitted to overflow untreated sewage into the river "in exceptional conditions". 5km downstream, and somewhat cleaned up by what it passed through on the way, the watercress farm has grown and sold cress using the river water since 1886, and throughout the period when the sewage works were built, probably in the early 20th century, and properly operated

A few years ago, growth in water use in the area led to overflow conditions occurring more often. By the time it was overflowing on more than half the days of the year, and generally almost every day in the wetter half of the year, Thames Water pleaded guilty to charges of making illegal discharges, conceding that this was far beyond any reasonable interpretation of "exceptional conditions". An investment plan to increase the capacity of the sewage works and get its overflows back to "in excepional conditions" was agreed, and presumably therefore fundable through the regulated price of sewage treatment permitted by Ofwat. But the condition of the river remained bad for an extended period until this was carried out. And many local people consider the funded expansion insufficient to get the river back to a good condition, given its ecological significance.

Meanwhile, downstream, the relevant regulators prevented the cress farm from selling its cress, while the water it was grown in was so sewage laden. Initially they held off harvesting it hoping it would be sorted out in a few months. When they saw this wasn't going to happen, they built a borehole and used this to irrigate their cress. But about 3 years later, they have been unable to satisfy the inspectors, and have been closed down.

They complain that the various regulators just ignore their needs to be able to get back into production. I think this lies somewhere between cleaning up the river properly and getting a sufficiently large abstraction permit. When the river is high, as it has been for much of the last couple of years, it will infiltrate unless they pump enough water to keep the level high in the beds. But they don't have a sufficient abstraction permit to do that.

IvanV
Snowbonk
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by IvanV » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:29 pm

It occurs to me that the glorious triumph of a British female tennis player in a major tournament for the first time in 44 years would more likely have been the glorious triumph of a Canadian* female tennis player (I'm not changing the result), had the present residence and immigration rules of the Tinpot Kingdom of Great England been in place a little earlier.

Ms Răducanu was born in Canada to Romanian and Chinese parents. As her parents worked in finance and came to Britain shortly before the 2007 opening up of the British labour market to Romanians, doubtless they might have been able to settle here anyway on rules for migration of skilled labour. But the great majority of people with such passports would today find it much harder to come here, and many are also deterred by the present level of welcome they enjoy from some of the natives.

Since rulers of this Tinpot Kingdom like sporting glory, perhaps they might think about how we have long obtained a substantial part of it. I think a good start would be for the present prime minister and queen to recognise their own immigrant/mixed national origins, and reverse the surname changes their grandfathers made. It might make them more aware of the value of such things. I sometimes joke I'm more British than either of them.

*And you could say it was anyway, as she is a dual Canadian/British national.

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 5361
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:39 pm

Would any of you have bothered watching if it had been a Canadian playing a Canadian instead a Canadian who happened to live in England playing a Canadian?
molto tricky

User avatar
Opti
Catbabel
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:21 pm
Location: Got a home right by the sea.

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Opti » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:04 pm

I would have done. ddb is a big tennis fan and she's been watching most of the tournyment. She'll watch anyone she thinks is a new big thing. So I joined in.
She won't be watching Djokovic, she really doesn't like him since his anti-vaxx bollocks. She used to.
Time for a big fat one.

User avatar
Brightonian
Catbabel
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Brightonian » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:40 pm


Millennie Al
Catbabel
Posts: 910
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:40 am

If you care what's printed on your glass, you're clearly drinking the wrong thing.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

User avatar
shpalman
Light of Blast
Posts: 5361
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:29 pm

molto tricky

IvanV
Snowbonk
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by IvanV » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:11 am

shpalman wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:29 pm
not good if you are a sandwich
I suppose it speaks a lot for how well integrated the EU common market was that you could export a fresh sandwich from Britain in time for it to be eaten on the continent. I can't imagine the market was very large though.
We are getting about 80% of our product through, less than that in France because the French, predictably, are draconian.
Indeed, it was predictable, and much predicted. The French have form when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'm already astonished anyone was ever exporting fresh sandwiches from Britain to France, and even more astonished they are still trying. I suppose there must be some kind of special satisfaction that comes from succeeding in exporting fresh sandwiches to France after Brexit, that makes it worth losing over 20% of them from being held up too long on the way.

plodder
Dorkwood
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by plodder » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:15 am

IvanV wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:37 pm
This has resulted in the last watercress farm in the Chilterns closing. The section of the river Chess around the cress beds also supports close to the entire Chiltern population of water voles, and so is of considerable ecological significance.

The farm traditionally grew cress in the water of the river Chess, which (mostly) rises about 8km away from some large springs on the west side of Chesham. About 3km downstream of the source is Chesham sewage works, which also serves the north side of Amersham, and which has long discharged treated water into the river. In prolonged dry conditions, the aquifers become less productive, and the output of the sewage works can provide more than half the river's flow downstream of the works. In conditions of heavy rain, the sewage works can become overwhelmed and they are permitted to overflow untreated sewage into the river "in exceptional conditions". 5km downstream, and somewhat cleaned up by what it passed through on the way, the watercress farm has grown and sold cress using the river water since 1886, and throughout the period when the sewage works were built, probably in the early 20th century, and properly operated

A few years ago, growth in water use in the area led to overflow conditions occurring more often. By the time it was overflowing on more than half the days of the year, and generally almost every day in the wetter half of the year, Thames Water pleaded guilty to charges of making illegal discharges, conceding that this was far beyond any reasonable interpretation of "exceptional conditions". An investment plan to increase the capacity of the sewage works and get its overflows back to "in excepional conditions" was agreed, and presumably therefore fundable through the regulated price of sewage treatment permitted by Ofwat. But the condition of the river remained bad for an extended period until this was carried out. And many local people consider the funded expansion insufficient to get the river back to a good condition, given its ecological significance.

Meanwhile, downstream, the relevant regulators prevented the cress farm from selling its cress, while the water it was grown in was so sewage laden. Initially they held off harvesting it hoping it would be sorted out in a few months. When they saw this wasn't going to happen, they built a borehole and used this to irrigate their cress. But about 3 years later, they have been unable to satisfy the inspectors, and have been closed down.

They complain that the various regulators just ignore their needs to be able to get back into production. I think this lies somewhere between cleaning up the river properly and getting a sufficiently large abstraction permit. When the river is high, as it has been for much of the last couple of years, it will infiltrate unless they pump enough water to keep the level high in the beds. But they don't have a sufficient abstraction permit to do that.
The interesting thing about watercress farms is that they also cause pollution downstream, e.g. https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/T ... d006e14e58

I worked in the water industry a couple of years ago and there was a genuine panic as we approached "No Deal" day that chemicals for treating drinking water would run out (they are mainly imported). It's no surprise that the same applies to treating effluent, however there's currently a lot of high-profile pressure on the continued and sustained over-use of CSOs (combined sewer overflows - the pipes that discharge untreated sewage into rivers when treatment processes hit capacity) by water companies, and I'd be surprised if the situation is allowed to continue into the longer term.

However, creaking infrastructure is rarely a quick fix (even if the solution is simple) due to the large cans of worms that tend to get excavated whenever you try to modernise something that's completely out-of-date. In many cases the solution will be pretty simple though - maybe just a storage tank to increase the capacity of the works.

FlammableFlower
Dorkwood
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:49 am

IvanV wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:11 am
shpalman wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:29 pm
not good if you are a sandwich
I suppose it speaks a lot for how well integrated the EU common market was that you could export a fresh sandwich from Britain in time for it to be eaten on the continent. I can't imagine the market was very large though.
We are getting about 80% of our product through, less than that in France because the French, predictably, are draconian.
Indeed, it was predictable, and much predicted. The French have form when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'm already astonished anyone was ever exporting fresh sandwiches from Britain to France, and even more astonished they are still trying. I suppose there must be some kind of special satisfaction that comes from succeeding in exporting fresh sandwiches to France after Brexit, that makes it worth losing over 20% of them from being held up too long on the way.
Who would have guessed that being outside a customs union is more awkward and bureaucratic than being within the same customs union?

User avatar
Brightonian
Catbabel
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Brightonian » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:12 am

UK delays implementing post-Brexit border controls on agri-food imports from EU. No surprise it's been kicked down the road again, but eight months??? Of course, it's all because of the pandemic.

User avatar
Fishnut
Dorkwood
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Fishnut » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:25 am

Brightonian wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:12 am
UK delays implementing post-Brexit border controls on agri-food imports from EU. No surprise it's been kicked down the road again, but eight months??? Of course, it's all because of the pandemic.
The pandemic is proving incredibly useful for hiding the problems with brexit. If one were conspiracy-minded one might wonder if the government f.cked up its response so badly in order for it to provide that cover. Though that would require them to recognise how bad the trade deal was going to affect us and I'm not sure anyone in a position of power did.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

User avatar
Sciolus
Catbabel
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Sciolus » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:55 pm

The EU is incredibly lucky that the virus never reached mainland Europe, or they'd never have been able to get all the border arrangements in place on their side.

User avatar
JQH
Dorkwood
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:30 pm
Location: Sar Flandan

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by JQH » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:31 am

shpalman wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:39 pm
Would any of you have bothered watching if it had been a Canadian playing a Canadian instead a Canadian who happened to live in England playing a Canadian?
Probably not if that meant Channel 4 didn't show it. I wouldn't have paid Amazon Prime to stream it, that's for sure.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

Fintan O'Toole

User avatar
Brightonian
Catbabel
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Brightonian » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:44 pm

Back to pounds, ounces, hundredweights, roods, bushels... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scal ... -638vfn655

FlammableFlower
Dorkwood
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by FlammableFlower » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:48 pm

Oh ffs

User avatar
Trinucleus
Snowbonk
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:45 pm

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Trinucleus » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:57 pm

Brightonian wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:44 pm
Back to pounds, ounces, hundredweights, roods, bushels... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scal ... -638vfn655
Given that electronic scales will do any system, it hardly matters now

User avatar
dyqik
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4178
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by dyqik » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:00 pm

Trinucleus wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:57 pm
Brightonian wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:44 pm
Back to pounds, ounces, hundredweights, roods, bushels... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scal ... -638vfn655
Given that electronic scales will do any system, it hardly matters now
It's a barrier to trade, and barrier to anyone under the age of 55.

User avatar
Brightonian
Catbabel
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Brightonian » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:34 pm

Brightonian wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:44 pm
Back to pounds, ounces, hundredweights, roods, bushels... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scal ... -638vfn655
When I sell something on eBay perhaps I'll give the weight in adult badgers...
IMG_20210916_202917.jpg
IMG_20210916_202917.jpg (40.7 KiB) Viewed 116 times

sheldrake
Catbabel
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by sheldrake » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:52 pm

Quick survey; how many of the things you were scared of in 2017 turned out to be true?

How's BMW in Oxford doing, for example?

User avatar
nekomatic
Catbabel
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by nekomatic » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:33 pm

Weeeellll… it’s doing better than Honda in Swindon, I guess.

User avatar
veravista
Snowbonk
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm
Location: Directly above the centre of the earth

Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by veravista » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 pm

My butcher, bless him, will still do lbs for the oldies and kilos for the rest of us or even combinations of the two. with the modern EPS systems it's no great shakes. However, anyone who has done anything that is vaguely technical wants SI, it's so easy and these tw.ts are just, well, tw.ts. I mean, even the f.cking yanks don't use Imperial*.

What next? £, s & d?

* - I once had the 'pleasure' of having to work with some US aerospace guys doing a design for a European engine manufacturer - my sole job for a couple of months was to check that they had managed to get the units and calcs right into SI. In the end a lot of them saw the light...

Post Reply