Brexit Consequences

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Sciolus
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Sciolus » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:07 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:14 am
New DUP leader targets end to Northern Ireland protocol because of course he does.
Shame there wasn't space in that article to describe what he would replace it with and how he would get the relevant parties to sign up to his proposal.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by science_fox » Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:07 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57690505

Nobody likes sweets in the UK do they. Cos if you do I hope you didn't vote for brexit. Haribo struggling to ship to the UK. Not solely brexit, covid played it's part, but many drivers have left.
I'm not afraid of catching Covid, I'm afraid of catching idiot.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:21 am

UK school skiing trips to EU could be wiped out by Brexit visa rules
Not all school skiing trips have been hit though. Hugues Raulet, who runs Halsbury Travel in Nottingham, said the only issue he is anticipating is delays at the border.

This is because his company employs local staff who do not need work visas.
molto tricky

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Lew Dolby » Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:26 am

Sciolus wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:07 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:14 am
New DUP leader targets end to Northern Ireland protocol because of course he does.
Shame there wasn't space in that article to describe what he would replace it with and how he would get the relevant parties to sign up to his proposal.
[Sorry, just catching up]

It's the DUP. For them, the replacement as such is easy - bin the Good Friday Agreement. They never wanted it from the start and campaigned hard against it.
If you bring you kids up to think for themselves, you can't complain when they do

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:09 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:21 am
UK school skiing trips to EU could be wiped out by Brexit visa rules
Not all school skiing trips have been hit though. Hugues Raulet, who runs Halsbury Travel in Nottingham, said the only issue he is anticipating is delays at the border.

This is because his company employs local staff who do not need work visas.
So as a result of Brexit, British kids are going to be more likely to have to interact with smelly foreigners?

I wouldn't have guessed that UK ski trips would depend on important staff from the UK for a week at a time anyway - seems overly complicated and inefficient, though maybe xenophobia is extremely lucrative.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:36 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:09 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:21 am
UK school skiing trips to EU could be wiped out by Brexit visa rules
Not all school skiing trips have been hit though. Hugues Raulet, who runs Halsbury Travel in Nottingham, said the only issue he is anticipating is delays at the border.

This is because his company employs local staff who do not need work visas.
So as a result of Brexit, British kids are going to be more likely to have to interact with smelly foreigners?

I wouldn't have guessed that UK ski trips would depend on important staff from the UK for a week at a time anyway - seems overly complicated and inefficient, though maybe xenophobia is extremely lucrative.
In practice I suspect that there may be many opportunities for dual nationals or for EU nationals based in the UK. Schools that plan on doing trips to the EU will be looking to hire teachers who have an EU passport.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:42 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:09 am
shpalman wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:21 am
UK school skiing trips to EU could be wiped out by Brexit visa rules
Not all school skiing trips have been hit though. Hugues Raulet, who runs Halsbury Travel in Nottingham, said the only issue he is anticipating is delays at the border.

This is because his company employs local staff who do not need work visas.
So as a result of Brexit, British kids are going to be more likely to have to interact with smelly foreigners?

I wouldn't have guessed that UK ski trips would depend on important staff from the UK for a week at a time anyway - seems overly complicated and inefficient, though maybe xenophobia is extremely lucrative.
It's also possible that some of the UK "staff", maybe not the instructors themselves, are on a bit of a semi-paid holiday doing this sort of thing.

But nevermind, they'll have to get taught to ski by people who actually live in the Alps and have skied literally every weekend (including the summer - there are glaciers at >3000 m for that) since they were about 4 years old plus every holiday, I know it won't be as good as some braying British public school trustfunder but still.

Also, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54523014 and https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55465079
molto tricky

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:55 am

shpalman wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:42 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:09 am
So as a result of Brexit, British kids are going to be more likely to have to interact with smelly foreigners?

I wouldn't have guessed that UK ski trips would depend on important staff from the UK for a week at a time anyway - seems overly complicated and inefficient, though maybe xenophobia is extremely lucrative.
It's also possible that some of the UK "staff", maybe not the instructors themselves, are on a bit of a semi-paid holiday doing this sort of thing.

But nevermind, they'll have to get taught to ski by people who actually live in the Alps and have skied literally every weekend (including the summer - there are glaciers at >3000 m for that) since they were about 4 years old plus every holiday, I know it won't be as good as some braying British public school trustfunder but still.

Also, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54523014 and https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55465079
The ski instructors should normally be locals. I doubt that many UK teachers are qualified. The issue for work permits will be who supervises the kids as the teachers have been doing that as part of their job.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:58 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:36 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:09 am
So as a result of Brexit, British kids are going to be more likely to have to interact with smelly foreigners?

I wouldn't have guessed that UK ski trips would depend on important staff from the UK for a week at a time anyway - seems overly complicated and inefficient, though maybe xenophobia is extremely lucrative.
In practice I suspect that there may be many opportunities for dual nationals or for EU nationals based in the UK. Schools that plan on doing trips to the EU will be looking to hire teachers who have an EU passport.
I think it's not the school teachers affected, but the practice of importing British ski instructors for a few weeks at a time. Would you normally need a work permit to lead a school trip?

As shpalman said, the poor dears are probably going to be forced into contact with local cultures instead. I thought Brexit was meant to prevent that sort of thing, but it's their own fault for wanting to go to foreign parts in the first place.

Or perhaps the government will come up with a plan to drain remaining peat uplands and cover them in artificial piste.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:58 am

Still jolly unfair of the EU though. It's not like there's any problem for EU citizens getting seasonal work permits in the UK.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by shpalman » Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:08 pm

UK-EU relations deteriorate again after ‘strange’ David Frost remarks
... relations between Brussels and London deteriorated again after remarks by the Brexit minister David Frost in the past 24 hours.
What remarks? These remarks:

David Frost and Brandon Lewis: We must find a new balance in how NI protocol is operated
To simply say it must be implemented in full does not deal with the reality that now exists
molto tricky

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by plodder » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:34 am

shpalman wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:08 pm
UK-EU relations deteriorate again after ‘strange’ David Frost remarks
... relations between Brussels and London deteriorated again after remarks by the Brexit minister David Frost in the past 24 hours.
What remarks? These remarks:

David Frost and Brandon Lewis: We must find a new balance in how NI protocol is operated
To simply say it must be implemented in full does not deal with the reality that now exists
It’s good to know that Frost doesn’t have his head in the sand and to be fair he raises a number of salient points. The idea that there needs to be a hard border somewhere or the union needs to break up, because of rules, does beg the question that perhaps the rules need looking at.

Easier said than done, though. Needs a big pork barrel to keep Sinn Fein and the DUP on side.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:52 am

plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:34 am
shpalman wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:08 pm
UK-EU relations deteriorate again after ‘strange’ David Frost remarks
... relations between Brussels and London deteriorated again after remarks by the Brexit minister David Frost in the past 24 hours.
What remarks? These remarks:

David Frost and Brandon Lewis: We must find a new balance in how NI protocol is operated
To simply say it must be implemented in full does not deal with the reality that now exists
It’s good to know that Frost doesn’t have his head in the sand and to be fair he raises a number of salient points. The idea that there needs to be a hard border somewhere or the union needs to break up, because of rules, does beg the question that perhaps the rules need looking at.
Those would be the rules that Frost negotiated and endorsed.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by philbo » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:14 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:52 am
plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:34 am
It’s good to know that Frost doesn’t have his head in the sand and to be fair he raises a number of salient points. The idea that there needs to be a hard border somewhere or the union needs to break up, because of rules, does beg the question that perhaps the rules need looking at.
Those would be the rules that Frost negotiated and endorsed.
..and the UK government signed up to, told the electorate it was a great deal, got voted in with a thumping majority on pretty much that basis: seems to me that the government have a mandate to enforce either that hard border somewhere, or the break up of the Union

What they really don't have any kind of mandate for is to turn around now and say "we don't think these rules are needed y'know, let's just ignore them m'kay?"

It's not like nobody was raising these issues while negotiations were going on. I don't think it's "in the sand" where I'd be suggesting Frost has his head

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by cvb » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am

It's almost as if the UK Governemt do not want to abide by the rules that they themselves negotiated because it does not suit them. The situation has not changed. The border has to be f.cking somewhere. Unless it is a reverse Schrodinger's border that is both not is the Irish sea and not on the isle of Ireland at the same f.cking time.

eta As pointed out above. This was known at the time they agreed this. f.cking c.nts.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:30 am

Certainly seems like they were negotiated in bad faith, with every intention of trying to ignore them.
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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by tom p » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:32 am

I think the EU has been very generous, and also very compassionate and very smart. By agreeing to a 3-month delay, they stop the arguments from escalating during the marching season. Thus there won't be any imminent political pressure on it to give the UK a break to stop the riots which would have happened anyway getting any worse.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by plodder » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 am

cvb wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
It's almost as if the UK Governemt do not want to abide by the rules that they themselves negotiated because it does not suit them. The situation has not changed. The border has to be f.cking somewhere. Unless it is a reverse Schrodinger's border that is both not is the Irish sea and not on the isle of Ireland at the same f.cking time.

eta As pointed out above. This was known at the time they agreed this. f.cking c.nts.
Yes, Frost is essentially admitting that the UK has behaved like complete c.nts and they will continue to do so. But now what? A softer border is still the only realistic outcome. This is a negotiation, it's normal for people to act like a..eholes when their back is against the wall.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:04 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 am
cvb wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
It's almost as if the UK Governemt do not want to abide by the rules that they themselves negotiated because it does not suit them. The situation has not changed. The border has to be f.cking somewhere. Unless it is a reverse Schrodinger's border that is both not is the Irish sea and not on the isle of Ireland at the same f.cking time.

eta As pointed out above. This was known at the time they agreed this. f.cking c.nts.
Yes, Frost is essentially admitting that the UK has behaved like complete c.nts and they will continue to do so. But now what? A softer border is still the only realistic outcome. This is a negotiation, it's normal for people to act like a..eholes when their back is against the wall.
The question is whether someone can get away with being an a..eh.le. That's normal if the a..eh.le is much more powerful. Much harder if not.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by veravista » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:36 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 am
cvb wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
It's almost as if the UK Governemt do not want to abide by the rules that they themselves negotiated because it does not suit them. The situation has not changed. The border has to be f.cking somewhere. Unless it is a reverse Schrodinger's border that is both not is the Irish sea and not on the isle of Ireland at the same f.cking time.

eta As pointed out above. This was known at the time they agreed this. f.cking c.nts.
Yes, Frost is essentially admitting that the UK has behaved like complete c.nts and they will continue to do so. But now what? A softer border is still the only realistic outcome. This is a negotiation, it's normal for people to act like a..eholes when their back is against the wall.
Wrong. How many times does it need saying? There is a border, negotiated and agreed by both the EU and UK. It's between the UK mainland and the island which contains Northern Ireland. Want to renegotiate that? Go back to the table and start talking and stop whining.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by plodder » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:31 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:04 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 am
cvb wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
It's almost as if the UK Governemt do not want to abide by the rules that they themselves negotiated because it does not suit them. The situation has not changed. The border has to be f.cking somewhere. Unless it is a reverse Schrodinger's border that is both not is the Irish sea and not on the isle of Ireland at the same f.cking time.

eta As pointed out above. This was known at the time they agreed this. f.cking c.nts.
Yes, Frost is essentially admitting that the UK has behaved like complete c.nts and they will continue to do so. But now what? A softer border is still the only realistic outcome. This is a negotiation, it's normal for people to act like a..eholes when their back is against the wall.
The question is whether someone can get away with being an a..eh.le. That's normal if the a..eh.le is much more powerful. Much harder if not.
Right, and that's exactly what's being played out right now - both parties are testing out the other's relative strength. The EU is obviously considerably more powerful in normal circumstances, but the morass and fragility of NI politics means that there's far less scope for flexing of muscles. The EU, for example, are not going to install or beef up Irish border infrastructure, which they would cheerfully do for any of their other land borders.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:54 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:31 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:04 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 am


Yes, Frost is essentially admitting that the UK has behaved like complete c.nts and they will continue to do so. But now what? A softer border is still the only realistic outcome. This is a negotiation, it's normal for people to act like a..eholes when their back is against the wall.
The question is whether someone can get away with being an a..eh.le. That's normal if the a..eh.le is much more powerful. Much harder if not.
Right, and that's exactly what's being played out right now - both parties are testing out the other's relative strength. The EU is obviously considerably more powerful in normal circumstances, but the morass and fragility of NI politics means that there's far less scope for flexing of muscles. The EU, for example, are not going to install or beef up Irish border infrastructure, which they would cheerfully do for any of their other land borders.
I agree that a powerplay is being played out in slow motion. But I don't think it'll come down to border posts in NI. The question for the EU is whether its willing to introduce tariffs on UK products (which would lead to the UK retaliating). The EU would ultimately win, but is it worth the hassle?

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Fishnut » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:59 pm

A question - given that we've shown ourselves to be completely incapable of abiding by the terms of an agreement that we were boasting about securing only a few months ago, why on earth would any other country try and work out a trade deal with us? We've shown ourselves to either entirely dishonest or completely incompetent, never of which will have people climbing over each other to work with us.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by tom p » Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:05 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:59 pm
A question - given that we've shown ourselves to be completely incapable of abiding by the terms of an agreement that we were boasting about securing only a few months ago, why on earth would any other country try and work out a trade deal with us? We've shown ourselves to either entirely dishonest or completely incompetent, never of which will have people climbing over each other to work with us.
Exactly. It's why plodder's trolling is just pointless - he's not clever or funny and he doesn't have an answer to that 'cos there isn't one.

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Re: Brexit Consequences

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:09 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:59 pm
A question - given that we've shown ourselves to be completely incapable of abiding by the terms of an agreement that we were boasting about securing only a few months ago, why on earth would any other country try and work out a trade deal with us? We've shown ourselves to either entirely dishonest or completely incompetent, never of which will have people climbing over each other to work with us.
Two reasons why they might. Firstly is the extent to which NI is viewed as an exceptional case which won't affect other trade relationships. Basically 'what happens in Belfast stays in Belfast'. When the Australian negotiators sit down with their UK counterparts they may assume that the UK will act differently.

Secondly, states renege on their agreements all the time. The UK is doing it particularly brazenly, but it doesn't have the nickname perfidious Albion for nothing. trade agreements include clauses on disputes and what happens if one party doesn't fulfill its side of the bargain (eg raising tariffs again). That's not to say that UK actions are cost free. Trade agreements will take longer if other parties try to get everything spelled out in detail, and other states may be unwilling to open up some sectors of their economies.

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