Scrutable

Winter clearly isn't the issue.

In the olden days, when less food was imported, people did eat stuff grown in the UK during winter. Plenty of root vegetables and brassicas and stuff will survive the cold, and that's without considering the generally milder winters, improved varieties, greenhouses, etc.

There are economic issues, issues around consumer preferences, etc. But it's pretty daft to suggest that the only thing you can make during winter is ice cream.

Eating more UK-grown stuff might form part of a sensible decarbonisation strategy, for instance, though it would very much depend on the details - e.g. diverting crop area from animal fodder to human food would probably be a win, whereas growing tomatoes in greenhouses heated by fossil fuels certainly wouldn't.

John Redwood seems to have blocked me. I don’t think I’ve ever interacted with him on Twitter. Weird.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:00 pm

Winter clearly isn't the issue.

In the olden days, when less food was imported, people did eat stuff grown in the UK during winter. Plenty of root vegetables and brassicas and stuff will survive the cold, and that's without considering the generally milder winters, improved varieties, greenhouses, etc.

There are economic issues, issues around consumer preferences, etc. But it's pretty daft to suggest that the only thing you can make during winter is ice cream.

There was also a smaller population, famine wasn't unknown, and hunger and malnutrition were common. So while there's a whole host of technological improvements since then, that's certainly not sufficient evidence that the UK can feed itself in winter.

I guess you can call "more demand, same supply" an economic issue...

Britain has been importing more than half its food supply for well over a century, so I'm not sure when you're thinking of.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:00 pm

Winter clearly isn't the issue.

In the olden days, when less food was imported, people did eat stuff grown in the UK during winter. Plenty of root vegetables and brassicas and stuff will survive the cold, and that's without considering the generally milder winters, improved varieties, greenhouses, etc.

There are economic issues, issues around consumer preferences, etc. But it's pretty daft to suggest that the only thing you can make during winter is ice cream.

There was also a smaller population, famine wasn't unknown, and hunger and malnutrition were common. So while there's a whole host of technological improvements since then, that's certainly not sufficient evidence that the UK can feed itself in winter.

I guess you can call "more demand, same supply" an economic issue...

For sure, there have been a huge load of changes. I doubt that the UK could be self-sufficient at any time of year, certainly not without a drastic reduction in standard of living, and I don't see why that would be necessary or desirable.

But that's not what Redwood said. He said consumers would like a wider variety of UK produce in shops, and that the government should be supporting the industries that produce it. I'm not quite sure why so many people think it's jolly clever to pretend not to understand farming in order to have a go at him. (To be fair, I don't really know who he is)

If the government is actually committed to "taking back control", increased self-sufficiency is probably a sensible prong of that strategy. Currently, UK farming is based on the CAP model of overproduction within the single market. That economic landscape has already changed, so there is some thinking to be done. Government support for industries that make food is probably a good way to stop food prices rising, which given the already astronomical levels of food poverty in the UK is something that people should be taking seriously.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:00 pm

Eating more UK-grown stuff might form part of a sensible decarbonisation strategy, for instance, though it would very much depend on the details - e.g. diverting crop area from animal fodder to human food would probably be a win, whereas growing tomatoes in greenhouses heated by fossil fuels certainly wouldn't.

Once we have cheap green renewable energy we can use that in greenhouses. No need for fossil fuels.
Modern enhanced GM crops can be bred to withstand British winters, which are much milder than they used to be, anyway.
Lots of room for progress in this area.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:12 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:00 pm

Winter clearly isn't the issue.

In the olden days, when less food was imported, people did eat stuff grown in the UK during winter. Plenty of root vegetables and brassicas and stuff will survive the cold, and that's without considering the generally milder winters, improved varieties, greenhouses, etc.

There are economic issues, issues around consumer preferences, etc. But it's pretty daft to suggest that the only thing you can make during winter is ice cream.

There was also a smaller population, famine wasn't unknown, and hunger and malnutrition were common. So while there's a whole host of technological improvements since then, that's certainly not sufficient evidence that the UK can feed itself in winter.

I guess you can call "more demand, same supply" an economic issue...

For sure, there have been a huge load of changes. I doubt that the UK could be self-sufficient at any time of year, certainly not without a drastic reduction in standard of living, and I don't see why that would be necessary or desirable.

But that's not what Redwood said. He said consumers would like a wider variety of UK produce in shops, and that the government should be supporting the industries that produce it. I'm not quite sure why so many people think it's jolly clever to pretend not to understand farming in order to have a go at him. (To be fair, I don't really know who he is)

If the government is actually committed to "taking back control", increased self-sufficiency is probably a sensible prong of that strategy. Currently, UK farming is based on the CAP model of overproduction within the single market. That economic landscape has already changed, so there is some thinking to be done. Government support for industries that make food is probably a good way to stop food prices rising, which given the already astronomical levels of food poverty in the UK is something that people should be taking seriously.

Redwood has lots of history, but aside from that his "we just need to do X" thinking could be ok - but even to try and give him every benefit of interpretation, it's very long term and he's failed to signal that. Twitter is not a great medium for nuanced comments, but every comment Redwood's produced lately on Brexit has been the sweeping statement variety (and things can be solved quickly).

There's a lot of things the UK could do, but it's not going to be quick and I'm not sure it's going to be acceptable/affordable. The kind of under-glass production that the Netherlands has isn't going to go up quickly, theirs has developed over decades. People who have trouble with lorry parks in their backyards are really not going to like acres of glasshouses appearing. Financing it too isn't going to be easy. Unless government is going to offer loans, then that's a lot of loans that need to be found to fund that kind of stuff.

On the other hand, we could try and be more traditionally seasonal, which is the other thing you allude to (whereas Redwood doesn't - fruit production he mentions isn't massive this time of year in the UK), except it starts to get much more restrictive diet-wise and that requires a big culture change as we've steadily grown accustomed to increasing variety at all times of year.

Someone somewhere described Brexit to trying to do a head transplant: we're so connected to the EU, in so many ways that are often overlooked that successfully decoupling is lengthy and complicated... and yet we seem to have attempted it with a meat cleaver.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:12 pm

... But that's not what Redwood said. He said consumers would like a wider variety of UK produce in shops, and that the government should be supporting the industries that produce it. I'm not quite sure why so many people think it's jolly clever to pretend not to understand farming in order to have a go at him. (To be fair, I don't really know who he is)

If the government is actually committed to "taking back control", increased self-sufficiency is probably a sensible prong of that strategy. Currently, UK farming is based on the CAP model of overproduction within the single market. That economic landscape has already changed, so there is some thinking to be done. Government support for industries that make food is probably a good way to stop food prices rising, which given the already astronomical levels of food poverty in the UK is something that people should be taking seriously.

I think people assume that things will get sorted out over time and we'll find ways to manage with the new normal, even if it's a normal where food costs more and some things we eat now become hard to find. So I suspect the mockery is aimed at Redwood's suggestion as if it were regarding the short term rather than several years hence. Marching into Sainsbury and demanding a wider variety of British vegetables next week isn't going to make them appear.

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:17 pm

There's a lot of things the UK could do, but it's not going to be quick and I'm not sure it's going to be acceptable/affordable. The kind of under-glass production that the Netherlands has isn't going to go up quickly, theirs has developed over decades. People who have trouble with lorry parks in their backyards are really not going to like acres of glasshouses appearing.

[brexiteer] They've had four years to prepare; why aren't these farmers ready for Brexit? [/brexiteer]

Some insight into how f.cked small businesses are, from the jellyworks.com twitter, @Hedgehogg16

Boris's deal requires me to register for VAT in 6 EU countries and take a fiscal representative in the EU that will charge €7k annually. I cancelled x25 orders to Germany yesterday worth €8k and received a non deliverable €5k order back from Italy. I have lost €30k in January

shpalman wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:08 pm

Some insight into how f.cked small businesses are, from the jellyworks.com twitter, @Hedgehogg16

Boris's deal requires me to register for VAT in 6 EU countries and take a fiscal representative in the EU that will charge €7k annually. I cancelled x25 orders to Germany yesterday worth €8k and received a non deliverable €5k order back from Italy. I have lost €30k in January

On a personal note, our company is finding its supply chain has started to gum up so our delivery lead times are getting increasingly lengthy and a number of EU customers have complained since New Year that the biological samples we've shipped to them on dry ice have arrived thawed and unusable.

Currently we are still trying to perm out what combination of winter, COVID and Brexit is causing all this but certainly Brexit is an additional ballache we could have done well without.

CoVID could well be hiding an awful lot of problems - fewer people going into supermarkets means fewer people seeing empty shelves/missing products for example.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:07 pm

CoVID could well be hiding an awful lot of problems - fewer people going into supermarkets means fewer people seeing empty shelves/missing products for example.

On the upside, hiding a small problem might actually stop it becoming a big problem due to panic buying.

shpalman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:59 am

bjn wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:01 am

If this keeps up, I can see a company stepping in to do that as a service for a range of small companies. EU-Warehousing-And-Distribution-R-US.

That would be EU-Warehousing-And-Distribution-R-US buying stock in bulk from lots of small UK companies and then selling it on in the EU?

Well I suppose each UK company would have to just do one lot paperwork at once instead of each time for each small personal order. And the EU company would become specialized in helping the UK companies with that.

It would certainly make it easier for personal buyers in the EU.

Of course the costs all increase because of the extra middlemen.

EU-Warehousing

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:01 am

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:07 pm

CoVID could well be hiding an awful lot of problems - fewer people going into supermarkets means fewer people seeing empty shelves/missing products for example.

On the upside, hiding a small problem might actually stop it becoming a big problem due to panic buying.

I don't think there are that many fewer people going to the supermarket because of covid - the supermarket is one of the few things still allowed (and of course necessary) even in strict lockdowns.

Yeah there'll be people doing their grocery shopping online because of it, wot I reckon is that it's a small number compared to in-person shopping.

shpalman wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:13 pm

shpalman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:59 am

bjn wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:01 am

If this keeps up, I can see a company stepping in to do that as a service for a range of small companies. EU-Warehousing-And-Distribution-R-US.

That would be EU-Warehousing-And-Distribution-R-US buying stock in bulk from lots of small UK companies and then selling it on in the EU?

Well I suppose each UK company would have to just do one lot paperwork at once instead of each time for each small personal order. And the EU company would become specialized in helping the UK companies with that.

It would certainly make it easier for personal buyers in the EU.

Of course the costs all increase because of the extra middlemen.

EU-Warehousing

I was coming to post the same thing. More winning.

EU introduces controls on vaccines to NI

The EU invoked Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol which allows parts of the deal to be unilaterally overridden.

shpalman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:41 pm

EU introduces controls on vaccines to NI

The EU invoked Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol which allows parts of the deal to be unilaterally overridden.

very very c.nty behaviour from the EU there.

plodder wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:52 pm

shpalman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:41 pm

EU introduces controls on vaccines to NI

The EU invoked Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol which allows parts of the deal to be unilaterally overridden.

very very c.nty behaviour from the EU there.

They have apparently reverse-ferreted within a few hours. It's also unclear if they did actually invoke Article 16 (which I think requires a month's notice) or if they just waved it around a bit.

The EU isn't meant to do operations, it does policy. It's good at things with a timetable of months or years, not days or weeks. This is an example of why. It also probably has the not very competent hands of von der Leyen all over it; she was not highly regarded as German defence minister and I think her margin of victory in her EP confirmation session was the lowest ever for a Commission president.

I'm struggling to understand exactly what the EU did. It sounds like they just wanted to impose checks on vaccines being imported to the UK via Ireland to make sure the UK wasn't getting extra?

Beeb says NI vaccine supply wouldn't be interrupted, so what are the tangible outcomes here?

hard border on the island of ireland at the first sign of trouble, f.cking over the NI protocol?

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:12 pm

I'm struggling to understand exactly what the EU did. It sounds like they just wanted to impose checks on vaccines being imported to the UK via Ireland to make sure the UK wasn't getting extra?

Beeb says NI vaccine supply wouldn't be interrupted, so what are the tangible outcomes here?

The imposition of checks is what's the issue - as its supposed to be the case that 'NI is in SM, so no checks'.

I guess I'm unclear on where any checks would take place.

The BBC just says "controls on vaccines to NI" (I assume the word "exports" is missing somewhere). Does that mean telling factories where they can send things, or busting open lorries at the border?

I can see the issue with the latter option, of course.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:00 pm

Winter clearly isn't the issue.

In the olden days, when less food was imported, people did eat stuff grown in the UK during winter. Plenty of root vegetables and brassicas and stuff will survive the cold, and that's without considering the generally milder winters, improved varieties, greenhouses, etc.

There are economic issues, issues around consumer preferences, etc. But it's pretty daft to suggest that the only thing you can make during winter is ice cream.

Eating more UK-grown stuff might form part of a sensible decarbonisation strategy, for instance, though it would very much depend on the details - e.g. diverting crop area from animal fodder to human food would probably be a win, whereas growing tomatoes in greenhouses heated by fossil fuels certainly wouldn't.

What can I say, my kale is f.cking indestructible and has survived over a week of snow, and is thriving, but I can't live off kale.

Of course not! There must also be neeps, tatties, oats and crisps.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:16 am

Of course not! There must also be neeps, tatties, oats and crisps.

The neeps are nae for eatin' they're for the beasts.