Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

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Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:50 pm

Incitement of insurrection

Donald John Trump engaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by willfully inciting violence against the Government of the United States.
I'll miss him after he's fled to Riyadh

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by FlammableFlower » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:14 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:50 pm
Incitement of insurrection

Donald John Trump engaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by willfully inciting violence against the Government of the United States.
To continue the theme we've had... the writers are not letting up before the season's finale on the 20th Jan.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:34 am

The Senate returns to session on January 19th. The trial could start at 11 on 20th - just an hour before Trump's term ends.

Fair justice requires allowing the defendant to have time to prepare and present his case.

A President who leaves via impeachment does not get pension ($219,00 a year at present), govt healthcare or secret service protection. Nixon got his pension because he resign not impeached. It's unclear if a President who is impeached after his term ends gets a pension. Most important to Trump is the protection - he is able to charge the Secret Service millions a year for staying in his hotels.

It's unclear if the impeachment of an ex President takes priority over all other business of the Senate and if the Chief Justice presides.

Kamala Harris has the casting vote as of noon on 20th but equally California loses a senator at the same moment. I'm not sure when Alex Padilla gets sworn in as replacement - immediately presumably?

A simple majority in the Senate, not two-thirds, can ban him from public office.
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:16 pm

lpm wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:34 am
Fair justice requires allowing the defendant to have time to prepare and present his case.
This isn't a requirement that the Senate has to follow.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Grumble » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:01 pm

When does Moscow Mitch stop being senate leader?
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:35 pm

It's a good question. I've not been able to find out.

- The new Senators elected in November have already been sworn in - I watched the ceremony for Hickenlooper from Colorado on Sunday Jan 3rd.
- The two new Georgia Senators need to have their wins officially certified. Their opponents have both conceded but it's not official. So when will they get sworn in?
- Pence doesn't get replaced by Harris until noon on 20th.
- Kamala Harris needs to be replaced by Alex Padilla.
- There's a reasonable likelihood that a Senator might not be able to attend and vote on a key day

Usually a change in control would happen at the November election time. The Senate would reconvene early Jan (Jan 6th this year) and elect new Senate officers at that point if there was a change in party control. I'm not sure of any precedent where the change in control happens between early Jan and Jan 20th.

Or maybe McConnell just accepts reality and allows a vote on new officers to go through when they return on Jan 19, even though the Repugs are technically a majority?
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:01 pm

22nd is the last day for Georgia to certify the run off. They are aiming to do it before inauguration though, but the state has to wait for the counties to certify by their earlier deadline.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:04 pm

The other factor is that Murkowski is publicly debating whether she continues to be a member of the Republican party.

That could* flip things as soon as the Georgia races are certified, if that's before inauguration.

* Would need there to be at least one more outrage, probably.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:11 pm

Timing wise, the biggest obstacle to immediate action is the recess. The (unlikely) reason for that being important is potential further action by Trump, or an attack on the United States by a foreign power that Trump won't respond to.

What happens if a majority or 2/3rd of Senators assemble and declare the Senate open for business, and the old rules null? I've only read Article 1 once, but checking again, the Constitution gives them complete authority to determine their own rules, and says that a majority is a sufficient quorum to make decisions.

McConnell's statement is merely about what the current rules are.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Grumble » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:13 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:11 pm
Timing wise, the biggest obstacle to immediate action is the recess. The (unlikely) reason for that being important is potential further action by Trump, or an attack on the United States by a foreign power that Trump won't respond to.

What happens if a majority or 2/3rd of Senators assemble and declare the Senate open for business, and the old rules null? I've only read Article 1 once, but checking again, the Constitution gives them the authority to determine their own rules, and says that a majority is a sufficient quorum.
If there aren’t 2/3 of senators willing to do that then an impeachment trial has no chance of succeeding anyway.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:17 pm

Grumble wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:13 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:11 pm
Timing wise, the biggest obstacle to immediate action is the recess. The (unlikely) reason for that being important is potential further action by Trump, or an attack on the United States by a foreign power that Trump won't respond to.

What happens if a majority or 2/3rd of Senators assemble and declare the Senate open for business, and the old rules null? I've only read Article 1 once, but checking again, the Constitution gives them the authority to determine their own rules, and says that a majority is a sufficient quorum.
If there aren’t 2/3 of senators willing to do that then an impeachment trial has no chance of succeeding anyway.
And certainly not of concluding quickly. It's also a political necessity, to avoid it becoming a partisan sh.t show, and also to allow threats of expelling disruptive Senators.

I'm thinking of this more as a way of overriding a few dissenters, rather than bare majority tactics. And having Pence onboard for at least opening the Senate session is probably useful.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:15 am

dyqik wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:04 pm
The other factor is that Murkowski is publicly debating whether she continues to be a member of the Republican party.

That could* flip things as soon as the Georgia races are certified, if that's before inauguration.

* Would need there to be at least one more outrage, probably.
The change to the primary rules that passed in Alaska this election cycle will make it much easier for her to run as independent or even independent caucusing with dems, as she will no longer need to appease enough republicans to get through a primary.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:30 am

So in Georgia alone, we've got three impeachable acts at least;

Phonecall demanding Raffensperger "find" 11780 votes

Earlier phonecall demanding other Georgian election staff "find the fraud".

Dismissing prosecutor for not going along with him.



ETA: If we've promoted high crimes to higher crimes, should misdemeanours be promoted to ma'amdemeanours?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by FlammableFlower » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am

So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by EACLucifer » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:48 am

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:02 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am
So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.
They don't want him impeached because it'll force them to go on record as supporting or denouncing him, and with the way more detail likely to come out, the first is probably politically unsustainable, and the second is also politically unsustainable.

Note that the 14th Amendment disqualifies anyone who gives aid or comfort to insurrectionists from Congress

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Grumble » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:56 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:02 am
FlammableFlower wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am
So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.
They don't want him impeached because it'll force them to go on record as supporting or denouncing him, and with the way more detail likely to come out, the first is probably politically unsustainable, and the second is also politically unsustainable.

Note that the 14th Amendment disqualifies anyone who gives aid or comfort to insurrectionists from Congress
What’s the process for that? Is it a trial/impeachment process?
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by bjn » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:26 pm

Grumble wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:56 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:02 am
FlammableFlower wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am
So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.
They don't want him impeached because it'll force them to go on record as supporting or denouncing him, and with the way more detail likely to come out, the first is probably politically unsustainable, and the second is also politically unsustainable.

Note that the 14th Amendment disqualifies anyone who gives aid or comfort to insurrectionists from Congress
What’s the process for that? Is it a trial/impeachment process?
The House votes to impeach with a simple majority. They pass that onto the Senate for a trial, overseen by a Supreme Court judge. There needs to be a 66% majority vote of those Senators present to convict.

What happened with the Ukraine impeachment is that the Republicans in control of the Senate refused to let witnesses be called during the trial (as it might be a tad embarrassing to have that all televised), so it was over fairly quickly with split along party lines, with only Romney voting to impeach his guilty arse. So without the 2/3 majority and a show trial, he got off scot free. Though Susan Collins thought he had 'learned a big lesson' and would be a good boy. He learnt one alright, that he could do whatever the f.ck he wanted, consequence free.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:40 pm

bjn wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:26 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:56 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:02 am


They don't want him impeached because it'll force them to go on record as supporting or denouncing him, and with the way more detail likely to come out, the first is probably politically unsustainable, and the second is also politically unsustainable.

Note that the 14th Amendment disqualifies anyone who gives aid or comfort to insurrectionists from Congress
What’s the process for that? Is it a trial/impeachment process?
The House votes to impeach with a simple majority. They pass that onto the Senate for a trial, overseen by a Supreme Court judge. There needs to be a 66% majority vote of those Senators present to convict.
Grumble's talking about the process for enforcing the 14th Amendment bar on insurrectionist in Congress, not impeachment.

2/3rds majority of the relevant house can expel members, and I would presume applies here. Probably to do it with less would eventually require a court finding that they did take part in an illegal insurrection. A simple majority in just that house can block them being seated in a new Congress though.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Grumble » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:37 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:40 pm
Grumble's talking about the process for enforcing the 14th Amendment bar on insurrectionist in Congress, not impeachment.
I was, thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by bjn » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:39 pm

Reading fail sorry.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Grumble » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:27 pm

bjn wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:39 pm
Reading fail sorry.
I probably should have cut the quote down to the bit I was referring to, I’m just lazy.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by jimbob » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:46 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am
So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.
Indeed. For "healing" those responsible for sedition against the democratic process need to be prosecuted and those cheering from the sidelines need to at least accept their role and credibly apologise.

Not get out the smelling salts like Ted Cruz when violent people wearing Nazi T-shirts are called Nazis.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:25 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:14 pm
lpm wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:50 pm
Incitement of insurrection

Donald John Trump engaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by willfully inciting violence against the Government of the United States.
To continue the theme we've had... the writers are not letting up before the season's finale on the 20th Jan.
That's when we'll discover that the last year is nothing more than a dream that Trump was having.
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Chris Preston » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:15 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am
So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.
This is the problem. The Trump administration has broken just about every convention there is and without doubt committed crimes. What they have learned from that (until this week) is that if you have power there are no consequences to this behaviour.

What has been seen from the whole election fraud fraud is that no-one so far has had to face accountability for all the lies told, the threats against election officials, all the incitement to violence (other than a couple of Georgia senators, who Trump now considers losers). Failure to hold Trump and his allies accountable will just embolden them and others to push the envelope even further next time.

Ironically, we now see private companies taking action against Trump, while there is nary a peep from any officials.
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