Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

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bjn
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by bjn » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:52 am

Not necessarily the right thread, but Trump has just gone and poked China with a very big stick by revoking the One China policy. This could be very bad, but there are 10 days left and hopefully the Chinese wait it out.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:19 pm

217 votes to win (435 Representatives but 2 seats currently unfilled (one because a Repug died of Covid)).

220 already pledged.

Double impeachment is like Marie Curie winning two Nobel Prizes, only the opposite.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by shpalman » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:19 pm
217 votes to win (435 Representatives but 2 seats currently unfilled (one because a Repug died of Covid)).

220 already pledged.

Double impeachment is like Marie Curie winning two Nobel Prizes, only the opposite.
With metaphorical rather than real radioactivity.
molto tricky

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:34 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:19 pm
217 votes to win (435 Representatives but 2 seats currently unfilled (one because a Repug died of Covid)).

220 already pledged.

Double impeachment is like Marie Curie winning two Nobel Prizes, only the opposite.
One Democrat (aged 75) positive for CoVID following being exposed by unmasked GOP representatives while sheltering last Wednesday, and so possibly missing the vote.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by bmforre » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:43 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:34 pm
One Democrat (aged 75) positive for CoVID following being exposed by unmasked GOP representatives while sheltering last Wednesday, and so possibly missing the vote.
The GOP idiots were asked to don masks in the shelter but refused such restriction on their oh-so-precious personal freedom.

What crime and misdemeanor should they be prosecuted for?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:09 pm

bmforre wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:43 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:34 pm
One Democrat (aged 75) positive for CoVID following being exposed by unmasked GOP representatives while sheltering last Wednesday, and so possibly missing the vote.
The GOP idiots were asked to don masks in the shelter but refused such restriction on their oh-so-precious personal freedom.

What crime and misdemeanor should they be prosecuted for?
In some states it's a felony to intentionally expose someone to an infectious disease. However, there's not a Federal equivalent, so probably they can't be prosecuted easily. Recklessness isn't really a crime - although there could be a civil action, I guess. But that would probably involve the Federal health insurance provider suing their personal liability insurer.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:13 pm

I know I left this on the other thread but this one is its true home
5B0FD177-873F-49A9-886A-160704A9C2B3.jpeg
5B0FD177-873F-49A9-886A-160704A9C2B3.jpeg (50.05 KiB) Viewed 476 times
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by bolo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:49 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:09 pm
In some states it's a felony to intentionally expose someone to an infectious disease. However, there's not a Federal equivalent, so probably they can't be prosecuted easily. Recklessness isn't really a crime - although there could be a civil action, I guess. But that would probably involve the Federal health insurance provider suing their personal liability insurer.
I am not a lawyer, but I think they could be prosecuted under DC law, if there is one, not just federal. There's some stuff here that might be relevant. It suggests the possibility of some general offenses like reckless endangerment or assault and battery, if there isn't anything specific to infectious diseases in DC. But I would be exceedingly surprised if any actual charges are brought unless the sick person was doing a lot more than just not wearing a mask.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:54 pm

bolo wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:49 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:09 pm
In some states it's a felony to intentionally expose someone to an infectious disease. However, there's not a Federal equivalent, so probably they can't be prosecuted easily. Recklessness isn't really a crime - although there could be a civil action, I guess. But that would probably involve the Federal health insurance provider suing their personal liability insurer.
I am not a lawyer, but I think they could be prosecuted under DC law, if there is one, not just federal. There's some stuff here that might be relevant. It suggests the possibility of some general offenses like reckless endangerment or assault and battery, if there isn't anything specific to infectious diseases in DC. But I would be exceedingly surprised if any actual charges are brought unless the sick person was doing a lot more than just not wearing a mask.
They'd have to know they were sick, as well, which is a major stumbling block.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Stranger Mouse » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:15 pm

I dunno if something is afoot but Chad Wolf is stepping down 11:59 pm ET
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by nezumi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:30 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:15 pm
I dunno if something is afoot but Chad Wolf is stepping down 11:59 pm ET
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 85690.html

Might have something to do with it...

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by tom p » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:44 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:46 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 am
So, some GOP don't want Trump impeached as it'll provoke more unrest...

That's how these fascists get emboldened.
Indeed. For "healing" those responsible for sedition against the democratic process need to be prosecuted and those cheering from the sidelines need to at least accept their role and credibly apologise.

Not get out the smelling salts like Ted Cruz when violent people wearing Nazi T-shirts are called Nazis.
Including Fox News

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:46 pm

nezumi wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:30 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:15 pm
I dunno if something is afoot but Chad Wolf is stepping down 11:59 pm ET
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 85690.html

Might have something to do with it...
Grrrr! The Independent now automatically redirects me to the homepage of their Spanish-language site instead of to the article in either language. I'm not even in a Spanish-speaking country FFS!
THINK BIG AND UPEND THE SYSTEM

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:03 am

Sort of related, but not quite - Deutsche Bank has apparently decided to no longer deal with Trump in the future and a Forbes article shows that Trump:
  1. owes far more (probably than twice) that previously calculated
  2. that many of the lenders are unknown
  3. he's lending money to himself through shell companies
  4. which probably means he's got more assets than people think, so is unlikely to go broke (at least quickly) - $1 billion debt vs $2.5 billion assets
They show the documents and the due dates for the loans.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:54 pm

Liz Cheney is the second Republican to confirm she will vote for impeachment (there are others no say they will consider)

I expect that will pretty much open the gates for up to 20 Republicans- especially as Trump is getting increasingly toxic. I wouldn’t have foreseen that last Friday.

ETA

"Much more will become clear in coming days and weeks, but what we know now is enough," Cheney said in her stmt.

Hmmmmm. I foresee some earthshaking stuff coming out.
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:32 pm

There's now a genuine chance the Republicans will strike at the head of the snake. Their only opportunity to prevent endless primaries and infighting over the next 4 years.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:33 pm

There is some shocking stuff in the judiciary report

https://judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfil ... n=4640-519
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:42 pm

I'm off now but please read and post a summary for my return at 7 a.m. Thanks.

Oh, and we need a list of 17 potential Republican Senators who'll convict, would be great if you could get this done too.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Boustrophedon » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:09 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:46 pm
nezumi wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:30 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:15 pm
I dunno if something is afoot but Chad Wolf is stepping down 11:59 pm ET
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 85690.html

Might have something to do with it...
Grrrr! The Independent now automatically redirects me to the homepage of their Spanish-language site instead of to the article in either language. I'm not even in a Spanish-speaking country FFS!
Don't worry, what with scrolling adverts and pop-ups it's f.cking unreadable in English. Not even a very long article, with little substance.
Remember it's only a coup if it's from the coup d'état region of France, otherwise it just sparkling white terrorism.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:11 am

The Introduction is pretty short, but worth a read. Skipping a bit of bumpf, and with my bolds:
As alleged in the Article of Impeachment and described in this report, President Trump has
acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. His continued
hold on the Office of the Presidency, even for only a few more days, represents a clear and present
danger to the United States.

President Trump has engaged in a prolonged effort to overturn the results of the 2020
presidential election and maintain his grip on power. He has spent months spreading
disinformation about the results—falsely claiming that he “won by a landslide,” that the election
was being “stolen,” and that the reported results are somehow fraudulent.
He has stated that it
would be illegitimate to accept the results of the election as certified by state officials and upheld
by state and federal courts, and he has implied that accepting those results would pose an existential
threat to the country, its democracy, and the freedoms of his political supporters. He has directly
threatened government officials to “find” lost votes or face criminal penalties, encouraged his own
Vice President to unlawfully overturn the election results and, ultimately, incited his supporters to
take violent action and prevent the counting of the election results.


President Trump invited his political supporters to Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021,
the day fixed by law for the counting of electoral votes. The crowd that gathered in the Ellipse that
morning was large, angry, and widely reported to be preparing for violent action. At that rally, the
President delivered an incendiary speech to his supporters. Among other statements, President
Trump reiterated false claims that “we won this election, and we won it by a landslide.” He stated
that “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” And then he
exhorted his supporters to “walk down Pennsylvania Avenue” to prevent the Congress from
confirming the election of “an illegitimate President.”

These comments directly incited a violent attack on the Capitol that threatened the safety
and lives of the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, and the President pro tempore of the
Senate, the first three individuals in the line of succession to the presidency.
The rioters attacked
law enforcement officers, unleashed chaos and terror among Members and staffers and their
families, occupied the Senate Chamber and Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office, ransacked other offices,
vandalized government property, and succeeded in interfering with Congress’s performance of its
2constitutional duty to count the electoral votes. Five people were killed, including a U.S. Capitol
police officer, and more than fifty police officers were seriously injured.

It is indisputable that the President encouraged—and that his actions foreseeably resulted
in—the terrorist attack that occurred. This alone would constitute grounds for impeachment.
There
is no place in our government for any officer, much less a President, who incites armed insurrection
to overturn the results of our democratic elections.

Even after it became clear that a mob of his supporters had breached the Capitol perimeter
and was violently attacking those inside, President Trump failed to take steps to stop the
insurrection. While violent insurrectionists occupied parts of the Capitol, President Trump ignored
or rejected repeated real-time entreaties from Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader
Chuck Schumer to appeal to his followers to exit the Capitol. Instead, he continued to encourage
his supporters and excoriated the Vice President for not “hav[ing] the courage to do what should
have been done.” He called at least one Republican Senator, not to check on his safety, but to ask
for additional delay to the certification of the election when the Congress reconvened. When he
finally issued a public statement addressing the violence hours after it began, President Trump
persisted in falsely asserting that “we had an election that was stolen from us,” and he told the
rioters, “[w]e love you, you’re very special.” And at the end of the day—when the extent of the
insurrection and the damage to our nation was clear—he declared that “[t]hese are the things and
events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously
stripped away.” President Trump concluded: “Remember this day forever!” Most recently, the
President publicly denied responsibility for the attack, claiming his words were “totally
appropriate.”

The threat that manifested in the Capitol on January 6, 2021 is ongoing. The emergency is
still with us. Reports suggest that the President’s supporters are threatening additional violence in
Washington, D.C. and in state capitals across the nation. The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits an
officer of the United States who has “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” from “hold[ing] any
office . . . under the United States.” Yet, despite widespread and bipartisan calls for his immediate
resignation, the President has refused to leave office. The Vice President has thus far failed to
invoke the Twenty-fifth Amendment to remove the President from office. The House has taken
every step short of impeachment to contain the danger. Now it is time to consider this last, grave,
necessary step.

Impeachment is not a punishment of prior wrongs, but a protection against future evils. It
is true that the President’s remaining term is limited—but a President capable of fomenting a
violent insurrection in the Capitol is capable of greater dangers still. He must be removed from
office as swiftly as the Constitution allows.
He must also be disqualified to prevent the recurrence
of the extraordinary threat he presents. For these reasons, the House must impeach President
Donald J. Trump.
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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:14 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:09 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:46 pm
nezumi wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:30 pm


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 85690.html

Might have something to do with it...
Grrrr! The Independent now automatically redirects me to the homepage of their Spanish-language site instead of to the article in either language. I'm not even in a Spanish-speaking country FFS!
Don't worry, what with scrolling adverts and pop-ups it's f.cking unreadable in English. Not even a very long article, with little substance.
I have the ublock origin Firefox extension, which seems to take care of most ads. I never get any. Other people's internets are indeed unusable.

When sites get extra annoying, Firefox also has a Reader View which presents just the text and images in a kind of ereader format - nice dark serif font on a white-ish background.

I could probably read the Spanish, if it at least went to the right article. But automatically redirecting when the equivalent content doesn't exist is a massive design flaw. If they don't fix it I'll whinge at them instead of you lot ;)
THINK BIG AND UPEND THE SYSTEM

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:17 am

lpm wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:42 pm
I'm off now but please read and post a summary for my return at 7 a.m. Thanks.

Oh, and we need a list of 17 potential Republican Senators who'll convict, would be great if you could get this done too.
McConnell


And about 20 who were leaning that way before that leaked. And it wouldn't have leaked if McConnell didn't have the votes.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by jimbob » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:52 am

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:17 am
lpm wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:42 pm
I'm off now but please read and post a summary for my return at 7 a.m. Thanks.

Oh, and we need a list of 17 potential Republican Senators who'll convict, would be great if you could get this done too.
McConnell


And about 20 who were leaning that way before that leaked. And it wouldn't have leaked if McConnell didn't have the votes.
I'm still not sure what Pence thinks he's doing. I don't think he's that popular with Trump or Trump supporters to be able to use them to get on the ticket next time. (Admittedly the only evidence I have for this is that Trump incited a lynch mob against him). But not going fir the 25th cannot be that popular when even McConnell has turned on Trump.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by Chris Preston » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:31 am

Pence would be more interested in creating a coalition of white evangelicals and the more traditional Republicans, leaving the loonier part of Trump's supporters alone.

Being supportive of Trump signals to the evangelicals that he will poor money into their churches, refusing to upend the constitution will bring the traditional Republican onside.

Pence's problem is that such a coalition will not be sufficient to win a Presidential Election. In reality, none of those jostling for the 2024 nomination can win unless Trump is out of the way. Even as tarnished as his brand now is, Trump would be a shoein for the 2024 Republican nomination and shows every sign of passing his base on to his family - Don Jr seems to be the front runner at the moment.
Here grows much rhubarb.

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Re: Impeachment 2: Higher Crimes and Misdemeanors

Post by lpm » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:11 am

Pence isn't well placed for a run at the Presidency - his grovelling to Trump is too humiliating, yet he's the enemy of the fascists anyway.

But he is well placed for other avenues of power and money - he's secured his position with the Christian extremists and traditional Republicans.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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