US 2021 Capitol insurrection

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Martin Y
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Martin Y » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am

Yes, but "planned" in the sense of that 4-step meme where step 3 is "????" and step 4 is "Profit".

I believe they thought if they could just force their way in, something would happen and "justice" and Trump would be restored. I also believe Trump thought that too; if he could just get his good people to throw over the tables then something something and his stolen victory would be returned to him. Everyone thought someone else had a plan for what to do once they got there. Many thought that it was jolly exciting to make blood-curdling death threats against the imagined traitors but somehow seem not to have imagined that in the cold light of day those are genuine, straightforward incitements to murder in circumstances where the mob would very likely have done it if they had the opportunity.

But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by JQH » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am
Yes, but "planned" in the sense of that 4-step meme where step 3 is "????" and step 4 is "Profit".
True. I didn't say it was a good plan.
I believe they thought if they could just force their way in, something would happen and "justice" and Trump would be restored. I also believe Trump thought that too; if he could just get his good people to throw over the tables then something something and his stolen victory would be returned to him. Everyone thought someone else had a plan for what to do once they got there. Many thought that it was jolly exciting to make blood-curdling death threats against the imagined traitors but somehow seem not to have imagined that in the cold light of day those are genuine, straightforward incitements to murder in circumstances where the mob would very likely have done it if they had the opportunity.

But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.
Given that the Oath Keepers are largely ex-military you'd think they would have known that taking military action without a clear objective and an exit strategy would be problematic.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by jimbob » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:57 am

JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:47 am
As well as another saying "This is what we trained for." Does rather support the notion that while some MAGAs may have spontaneously joined in after hearing the tangerine tw.t's speech, this was a planned insurrection.
Yes - and look how many were military or retired military. Yes there were dangerous clowns (one of the ziptie guys wasn't as clever as he thought, for example) but there was a cadre who had thought it through.

Geffory Palmer's Character in Fairly Secret Army but for real
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Martin Y
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Martin Y » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:05 pm

Ex-military covers all ranks of course, from those who are used to deciding what objective needs to be achieved to those who must decide how to do that to those who decide nothing and just follow orders.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Martin_B » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:18 pm

JQH wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am
Given that the Oath Keepers are largely ex-military you'd think they would have known that taking military action without a clear objective and an exit strategy would be problematic.
Have you looked at the recent American military actions? Afghanistan & Iraq had very woolly objectives (beyond, you know, win!) and no clear exit strategies. It does make you wonder what they are teaching in their military academies.
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Little waster » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:38 pm

Martin_B wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:18 pm
It does make you wonder what they are teaching in their military academies.
"When the pin is pulled Mr Grenade is no longer our friend".

Allegedly. ;)
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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Martin Y
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Martin Y » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:39 pm

Well, that might explain it; they expected to be welcomed as liberators.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:32 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:39 pm
Well, that might explain it; they expected to be welcomed as liberators.
Hmmm, definite theme here...

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:17 am

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am
But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.
So it wasn't Trump's fault after all???
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Herainestold » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:10 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:17 am
Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am
But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.
So it wasn't Trump's fault after all???
That will probably be his impeachment trial defence.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:44 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:17 am
Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am
But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.
So it wasn't Trump's fault after all???
Their plan only worked to the extent it did because of the whipped up crowd. Also Trump was inciting the Oath Keepers for months and months.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Martin Y
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:33 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:17 am
Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am
But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.
So it wasn't Trump's fault after all???
Trump's inflammatory lying body of work over several preceding months bears a great portion of the blame for their instigating the plot. His inflammatory lying speech on the day only flicked off the safety catch and pulled the trigger.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Vertigowooyay » Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:22 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:33 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:17 am
Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:15 am
But this stuff from the Oath Keepers shows pretty clearly that they were not spontaneously whipped up into acting on the day. It wasn't the incitement of the crowd egging each other on for them. They planned their assault. It was a half-assed plan with no clear objective, but it was a plan.
So it wasn't Trump's fault after all???
Trump's inflammatory lying body of work over several preceding months bears a great portion of the blame for their instigating the plot. His inflammatory lying speech on the day only flicked off the safety catch and pulled the trigger.
If anything, whipping up the crowd on the day just gave the Oath Keepers cover.
Calm yourself Doctor NotTheNineO’ClockNews. We’re men of science. We fear no worldly terrors.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by FlammableFlower » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:42 pm

Smartmatic are suing Fox for $2.7 billion...

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jimbob
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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by jimbob » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:09 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:42 pm
Smartmatic are suing Fox for $2.7 billion...
Please
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Herainestold » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:19 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:09 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:42 pm
Smartmatic are suing Fox for $2.7 billion...
Please
What are they likely to actually get if they succeed, and after lawyers are paid? A million?

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by dyqik » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:44 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:42 pm
Smartmatic are suing Fox for $2.7 billion...
Dominion are also preparing to sue Fox, and many of the same individuals.

They've asked social media networks to preserve posts from the individuals concerned.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Chris Preston » Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:16 am

Here grows much rhubarb.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Little waster » Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:31 pm

So ... how many Antifa in the end?
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by monkey » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:06 pm

Little waster wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:31 pm
So ... how many Antifa in the end?
There was that "Activist John" guy who had been arrested at a BLM protest in Utah after a shooting there, but he had already been pegged by the local BLM peeps and other left wing types* as a wrongun.

clicky


*Think someone posted a twitter thread detailing that.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by dyqik » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:11 pm

Capitol Police Union votes no confidence in Capitol Police leadership. Including 97% No Confidence in Capitol Police Captain Ben Smith.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:09 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:11 pm
Capitol Police Union votes no confidence in Capitol Police leadership. Including 97% No Confidence in Capitol Police Captain Ben Smith.
I never know what to think about US police unions. It's like a poo burrito.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by secret squirrel » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:14 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:09 pm
I never know what to think about US police unions. It's like a poo burrito.
Disappointed black guy meme: Your friend joins a union. It's a police union.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Herainestold » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:23 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:14 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:09 pm
I never know what to think about US police unions. It's like a poo burrito.
Disappointed black guy meme: Your friend joins a union. It's a police union.
Police unions are one of the many reasons defunding the police will never happen.

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Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:39 pm

Lots of places have already defunded their police forces to invest in social care https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcev ... partments/

But so far it's a grass-roots bottom-up effort (and I've not seen any analysis of the correlation with police union membership/strength). I don't see the current administration doing much to improve social care in communities, and so far all their police 'reform' proposals are just more of the same treading-lightly three-training-course-on-how-not-to-execute-black-people-but-no-consequences-if-you-do time-wasting that's been such a roaring success (for US racists). But that's because they're not interested in doing anything, not because they couldn't take on the unions if they needed to.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

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