US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
Aoui
Stargoon
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Aoui » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:54 pm

It seems he ran into two security guards and then hit a barrier. He then got out of his car brandishing, of all deadly weapons, a knife. Yup honey, you can surely take over an nearly empty capitol building with a ...knife. Needless to say they shot him. He quite literally showed up to a gunfight with a knife....

monkey
Dorkwood
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by monkey » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:52 pm

He died, and so did one of the officers.

clicky

User avatar
jimbob
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3881
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by jimbob » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:37 am

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zo ... th-keepers
Jon Schaffer, who wore an Oath Keepers hat on Jan. 6, has been doing “debrief” interviews and is a potential cooperator, according to a court filing that was mistakenly posted publicly.
Lots to unpick there.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
jimbob
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3881
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:06 am

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/ ... 0729651202
Tune in tomorrow as a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic caught on video assaulting police and urging other rioters to steal officers’ guns argues he should be released pretrial, under the supervision of his teenage girlfriend who graduated high school during the pandemic.
Creepy.

And also " a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic " WUT
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

tom p
After Pie
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by tom p » Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:52 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:06 am
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/ ... 0729651202
Tune in tomorrow as a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic caught on video assaulting police and urging other rioters to steal officers’ guns argues he should be released pretrial, under the supervision of his teenage girlfriend who graduated high school during the pandemic.
Creepy.

And also " a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic " WUT
well, he would have been 15 when the twin towers were hit and suddenly giuliani became almost canonised in the USA.

nezumi
Dorkwood
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by nezumi » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:37 pm

tom p wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:52 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:06 am
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/ ... 0729651202
Tune in tomorrow as a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic caught on video assaulting police and urging other rioters to steal officers’ guns argues he should be released pretrial, under the supervision of his teenage girlfriend who graduated high school during the pandemic.
Creepy.

And also " a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic " WUT
well, he would have been 15 when the twin towers were hit and suddenly giuliani became almost canonised in the USA.
This is what really confuses me, Giuliani was apparently absolutely wonderful back then, now he's an incompetent raving lunatic with a very bad dye job who tied his career to an obese megalomaniac with advanced dementia. Was he this bad back in 2001 but we didn't notice because terrrrists?
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

User avatar
dyqik
Light of Blast
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by dyqik » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:48 pm

nezumi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:37 pm
tom p wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:52 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:06 am
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/ ... 0729651202



Creepy.

And also " a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic " WUT
well, he would have been 15 when the twin towers were hit and suddenly giuliani became almost canonised in the USA.
This is what really confuses me, Giuliani was apparently absolutely wonderful back then, now he's an incompetent raving lunatic with a very bad dye job who tied his career to an obese megalomaniac with advanced dementia. Was he this bad back in 2001 but we didn't notice because terrrrists?
Look at George W Bush's approval rating in October 2001 for your answer. (Peaked at 88% approval, 7.6% disapproval)

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 9026
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:58 pm

I first heard the name Giuliani on Notorious BIG's 1994 track Everyday Struggle. I didn't get the impression he was a massive fan, but it's more a mention in passing:
I'm seein' body after body and our mayor Giuliani
Ain't tryin' to see no black man turn to John Gotti
I think that's implicitly a dig at "Broken Windows" or so least the implicit racism of its implementation. Plus a dig at the US's hypocrisy viz its reference for white gangsters versus repudiation of black ones. (Plus didn't the mob have a hit out on Rudi?)
Tree dwellers leaping out the boughs shouting «Get the paper»
Trunk hugging rebels chucking petals at a detonator

User avatar
dyqik
Light of Blast
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by dyqik » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:02 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:58 pm
I first heard the name Giuliani on Notorious BIG's 1994 track Everyday Struggle. I didn't get the impression he was a massive fan, but it's more a mention in passing:
I'm seein' body after body and our mayor Giuliani
Ain't tryin' to see no black man turn to John Gotti
I think that's implicitly a dig at "Broken Windows" or so least the implicit racism of its implementation. Plus a dig at the US's hypocrisy viz its reference for white gangsters versus repudiation of black ones. (Plus didn't the mob have a hit out on Rudi?)
Rudi probably placed it himself to boost his rep.

tom p
After Pie
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by tom p » Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:31 am

dyqik wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:02 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:58 pm
I first heard the name Giuliani on Notorious BIG's 1994 track Everyday Struggle. I didn't get the impression he was a massive fan, but it's more a mention in passing:
I'm seein' body after body and our mayor Giuliani
Ain't tryin' to see no black man turn to John Gotti
I think that's implicitly a dig at "Broken Windows" or so least the implicit racism of its implementation. Plus a dig at the US's hypocrisy viz its reference for white gangsters versus repudiation of black ones. (Plus didn't the mob have a hit out on Rudi?)
Rudi probably placed it himself to boost his rep.
It worked for Mitterand, so why not?

tom p
After Pie
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by tom p » Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 am

nezumi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:37 pm
tom p wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:52 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:06 am
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/ ... 0729651202



Creepy.

And also " a 35-year-old Rudy Giuliani fanatic " WUT
well, he would have been 15 when the twin towers were hit and suddenly giuliani became almost canonised in the USA.
This is what really confuses me, Giuliani was apparently absolutely wonderful back then, now he's an incompetent raving lunatic with a very bad dye job who tied his career to an obese megalomaniac with advanced dementia. Was he this bad back in 2001 but we didn't notice because terrrrists?
Basically, yes.
He was briefly adored 'cos of coming together against the outside enemy & the brilliant capturing of the narrative by the republicans

User avatar
Woodchopper
Light of Blast
Posts: 5283
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:07 am

tom p wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 am
nezumi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:37 pm
tom p wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:52 pm

well, he would have been 15 when the twin towers were hit and suddenly giuliani became almost canonised in the USA.
This is what really confuses me, Giuliani was apparently absolutely wonderful back then, now he's an incompetent raving lunatic with a very bad dye job who tied his career to an obese megalomaniac with advanced dementia. Was he this bad back in 2001 but we didn't notice because terrrrists?
Basically, yes.
He was briefly adored 'cos of coming together against the outside enemy & the brilliant capturing of the narrative by the republicans
Yes. In 2007 Giuliani was front runner in polls to be the Republican candidate. But he didn't win anything in the 2008 primaries, not even a county, because he had nothing to say about policies and just kept mentioning 9/11.

User avatar
Fishnut
After Pie
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Fishnut » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:58 am

Citations Needed did a podcast on Giuliani called It's Not a "Fall From Grace", This Has Always Been Who Giuliani Was. It's well worth a listen.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

tom p
After Pie
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by tom p » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:01 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:07 am
tom p wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 am
nezumi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:37 pm


This is what really confuses me, Giuliani was apparently absolutely wonderful back then, now he's an incompetent raving lunatic with a very bad dye job who tied his career to an obese megalomaniac with advanced dementia. Was he this bad back in 2001 but we didn't notice because terrrrists?
Basically, yes.
He was briefly adored 'cos of coming together against the outside enemy & the brilliant capturing of the narrative by the republicans
Yes. In 2007 Giuliani was front runner in polls to be the Republican candidate. But he didn't win anything in the 2008 primaries, not even a county, because he had nothing to say about policies and just kept mentioning 9/11.
Family guy spoofed that brilliantly when Lois ran for mayor of Quahog.

tom p
After Pie
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by tom p » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:01 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:58 am
Citations Needed did a podcast on Giuliani called It's Not a "Fall From Grace", This Has Always Been Who Giuliani Was. It's well worth a listen.
Ooh, interesting. thanks.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Light of Blast
Posts: 5283
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:30 pm


Jan. 6 Protest Organizers Say They Participated in ‘Dozens’ of Planning Meetings With Members of Congress and White House Staff
Two sources are communicating with House investigators and detailed a stunning series of allegations to Rolling Stone, including a promise of a “blanket pardon” from the Oval Office

As the House investigation into the Jan. 6 attack heats up, some of the planners of the pro-Trump rallies that took place in Washington, D.C., have begun communicating with congressional investigators and sharing new information about what happened when the former president’s supporters stormed the U.S. Capitol. Two of these people have spoken to Rolling Stone extensively in recent weeks and detailed explosive allegations that multiple members of Congress were intimately involved in planning both Trump’s efforts to overturn his election loss and the Jan. 6 events that turned violent.

Rolling Stone separately confirmed a third person involved in the main Jan. 6 rally in D.C. has communicated with the committee. This is the first report that the committee is hearing major new allegations from potential cooperating witnesses. While there have been prior indications that members of Congress were involved, this is also the first account detailing their purported role and its scope. The two sources also claim they interacted with members of Trump’s team, including former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, who they describe as having had an opportunity to prevent the violence.

The two sources, both of whom have been granted anonymity due to the ongoing investigation, describe participating in “dozens” of planning briefings ahead of that day when Trump supporters broke into the Capitol as his election loss to President Joe Biden was being certified.
“I remember Marjorie Taylor Greene specifically,” the organizer says. “I remember talking to probably close to a dozen other members at one point or another or their staffs.”

[…]

Along with Greene, the conspiratorial pro-Trump Republican from Georgia who took office earlier this year, the pair both say the members who participated in these conversations or had top staffers join in included Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.), Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.), Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.), Rep. Madison Cawthorn (R-N.C.), Rep. Andy Biggs (R-Ariz.), and Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas).

“We would talk to Boebert’s team, Cawthorn’s team, Gosar’s team like back to back to back to back,” says the organizer.

And Gosar, who has been one of the most prominent defenders of the Jan. 6 rioters, allegedly took things a step further. Both sources say he dangled the possibility of a “blanket pardon” in an unrelated ongoing investigation to encourage them to plan the protests.

“Our impression was that it was a done deal,” the organizer says, “that he’d spoken to the president about it in the Oval … in a meeting about pardons and that our names came up. They were working on submitting the paperwork and getting members of the House Freedom Caucus to sign on as a show of support.”
The organizer claims the pair received “several assurances” about the “blanket pardon” from Gosar.

[…]

“I was just going over the list of pardons and we just wanted to tell you guys how much we appreciate all the hard work you’ve been doing,” Gosar said, according to the organizer.
The rally planner describes the pardon as being offered while “encouraging” the staging of protests against the election. While the organizer says they did not get involved in planning the rallies solely due to the pardon, they were upset that it ultimately did not materialize.

“I would have done it either way with or without the pardon,” the organizer says. “I do truly believe in this country, but to use something like that and put that out on the table when someone is so desperate, it’s really not good business.”
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... e-1245289/

More at the link

User avatar
Woodchopper
Light of Blast
Posts: 5283
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:51 am

Capitol rioters called Nancy Pelosi's office looking for a 'lost and found' for items they left behind on January 6, according to Rep. Jamie Raskin
https://www.businessinsider.com/capitol ... ?r=US&IR=T

Al Capone Junior
Stargoon
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Al Capone Junior » Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:38 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:48 pm
He starts to complain about Governor Kemp's voter fraud in Georgia but starts rambling about how much Kemp weighs instead. 130 pounds apparently. Surely surely surely even MagaMorons listen to this and start to realise the guy's brain is totally fried.
No. They don't. Really. None of his supporters seem to notice any of his moral, economic, strategic, international, or domestic inadequacies at all.

"inadequacies" is not the best term here.

Staunch Christians who are still going on about Bill Clinton's total moral bankruptcy for having an affair with Monica just blink and keep on singing the man's praises when confronted with the obvious misogyny, assaults upon, and hideous treatment of women that are so obvious and uncontested of trump, so much that it would make the arch bishop blush like you were talking about little boys.

When questioned about the long slew of abhorrent appointments of the obviously worst possible choices to virtually every cabinet position, agency head, judge etc, they make it clear that these are not a problem, because Biden Bad, dems bad.

When pressed on the blatant attacks on the civil rights of virtually everyone other than extreme right wing evangelical Caucasian Christians, they complain about immigrants* ruining our country, being "brought in to vote democrat," and all the ways that white people are the ones who are actually under attack by a highly coordinated cabal of atheist Satan worshipping pedophiles.

When pressed on the fact that we have a couple of sandyhook type events per week, well nobody even noticed, because that happens every week,, so obviously more guns is the answer.

When pressed on the Jan 6th attempted coup, that was just peaceful protesters doing their biblical duty to be like Jesus, and liberals were the ones trying to take away our freedom by ratifying a stolen election that was ripe with massive, coordinated fraud.

When pressed on voter suppression, and attempts to overturn legitimate election results, and on the positioning of repugnican officials in election precincts all over the country, so as to throw out any non trumpian results in future elections, they lament about how democrats and immigrants committed massive fraud in 2020, and someone needs to stop this from taking away our last shreds of freedom.

When confronted with constitutional protection of Muslims, Jews, atheists or Satanists, they say that the constitution is for Christians only, and those "bad" groups are not included, and should not only not be similarly protected, but should actively be discriminated against and persecuted without recourse, by both individuals and government.

When confronted with the hypocrisy of refusing to be vaccinated, and the harm they reek on society as a result, with the hundreds of thousands of excess. Preventable deaths from covid, they claim bodily autonomy, with absolutely no inkling of the notion or noticement of the irony that women might also want bodily autonomy, and also they claim religious freedom, despite the fact that no religion has ever preached massive personal and social irresponsibility, with obvious great harm to soviety as their main doctrine**.

Sprinkle in the massive cognitive biases and shortcomings of the human mind, garnish with the denialism, algorithms and greed of social media, and you have the USA as it is today.

Suite madam blue
Gaze at your looking glass
You're not a child anymore

Civil War is going to happen in my lifetime, I fear. And to be honest, I wasn't really much of a soldier when I was in the army. I don't even care about guns***.

*very often Mexicans. Seriously, of all people to fear, Mexicans? Im quite sure trump has never met a Mexican in his life.. FFS I'd like to see these a..holes who are railing against Mexicans pick f.cking tomatoes for one f.cking day

**until now, that is. Now large numbers of churches and menbers of congress preach and legislate precisely this. Somehow I don't think that's what Jesus would do, if he had actually existed

***and I haven't owned one in over 25 years, until my mother got a new shotgun recently, and gave me back the one-barrel breakaway 20 ga I gave to her in the 90's. It's a far cry from the M4 I was assigned in the army tho. And I refuse to carry it around. I refuse to live in fear****. I'm brave enough to face life without needing deadly force at the tip of a single finger at all times.

****FFS I'm not even afraid of glyphosate, GMOs, or that sticker from the state of California that warned that the
forklift
I was operating last week was known to cause cancer. :shock: No, I'm not kidding. Just a general warning plastered on the machine, not even associated with the gas, oil, or hydraulic fluid. We're definitely all gonna die now for sure tho. :roll:

Millennie Al
Dorkwood
Posts: 1384
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:03 am

Al Capone Junior wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:38 pm
Civil War is going to happen in my lifetime, I fear.
However, it may be a rather one-sided war. Those who are unwilling, despite the minimal inconvenience, to wear a mask to protect themselves and their fellows are very unlikely to make good soldiers who need to be willing to die for their comrades and their cause. Those who keep emphasising personal responsibility (usually without actually showing any) may be able to fight against soft targets which pose little risk, but would be useless in a war.

User avatar
warumich
Fuzzable
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by warumich » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:29 pm

You're not going to have two opposing armies meeting each other on a battlefield representing clear territories or cousins fighting over their uncle's kingdom and a clear winner and loser.

You'll have an insurgency, an Iraq style quagmire with security forces constantly whackamoling and in the process ramping up security arrangements (bag checking for people moving between neighourhoods) to an extent that will aggravate the freedom lovers even further. Iraq was easy because at least you didn't have half (or more?) the security force sympathising with the insurgents. The US army was well able to overrun the Iraqi forces but still didn't manage to keep a lid on the civil war.

And as I said, I think Iraq is if you're lucky. You won't be able to rely on the army because half of them voted Trump or whatever, the way the rhetoric is heating up a the moment we might have outbreaks of a Rwanda style civil war, with neighbours hacking at each other with kitchen knives. Only in the US it won't be kitchen knives.

Not that I'm an expert or something and these scenarios are still far fetched. But I don't think the point of well sourced army vs stupid rabble point you're making has much bearing on whether there'll be a civil war, only how it'll look.

hey, good to see you again Mr Capone!
I've never had a signature, and it never did me any harm

Imrael
Fuzzable
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:59 am

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Imrael » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:25 pm

Alternative prediction - escalating instability (both Law and Order and Economic) while expected liberties, safeguards and information sources are steadily reduced in the name of restoring order, until really big constitutional change can be pushed through. Then apparent stability for a bit.

(Its my sense of the UK direction mainly, but applicable to US as well I suspect)

User avatar
Woodchopper
Light of Blast
Posts: 5283
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:49 pm

warumich wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:29 pm
You're not going to have two opposing armies meeting each other on a battlefield representing clear territories or cousins fighting over their uncle's kingdom and a clear winner and loser.

You'll have an insurgency, an Iraq style quagmire with security forces constantly whackamoling and in the process ramping up security arrangements (bag checking for people moving between neighourhoods) to an extent that will aggravate the freedom lovers even further. Iraq was easy because at least you didn't have half (or more?) the security force sympathising with the insurgents. The US army was well able to overrun the Iraqi forces but still didn't manage to keep a lid on the civil war.

And as I said, I think Iraq is if you're lucky. You won't be able to rely on the army because half of them voted Trump or whatever, the way the rhetoric is heating up a the moment we might have outbreaks of a Rwanda style civil war, with neighbours hacking at each other with kitchen knives. Only in the US it won't be kitchen knives.

Not that I'm an expert or something and these scenarios are still far fetched. But I don't think the point of well sourced army vs stupid rabble point you're making has much bearing on whether there'll be a civil war, only how it'll look.

hey, good to see you again Mr Capone!
Estimates vary but it looks like there were hundreds of thousands of war dead in Iraq after 2003 invasion. In that sense the intensity of fighting was similar to the US civil War.

I don't think the US will get that bad.

If there is to be an insurgency in the US I suspect that it would be more like what occurred in the UK, Spain, Italy during the 1970s and 1980s. What we'd be looking at would be a combination of bombings and shootings of civilians and assassinations of leaders, some of which may not be attributed to one side or another, combined with brutal use of force by state security forces which are biased toward one side.

You could argue that this is happening already. But it could get a lot worse. More importantly, the Italian phrase at the time was that the violence committed by rightists and state forces was part of a "strategy of tension" designed to enable authoritarian government. My impression of political violence in the US is that its decentralized and isn't part of an overall strategy directed by a leadership for a political end. Though I could be wrong there.

monkey
Dorkwood
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by monkey » Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:51 pm

Fintan O'Toole has written the most sensible thing I have read on the prospects of a USian civil war in this book review on the subject - clicky

He makes the point that things that look a lot like the precursors to civil wars have been pretty much going on all the time in the US. Here's the last 3 paragraphs:
This failure of historical perspective means that Marche can ignore the evidence that political violence, much of it driven by racism, is not a new threat. Even if we leave aside the actual Civil War, it has long been endemic in the U.S. Were the wars of extermination against American Indians not civil wars too? What about the brutal obliteration of the Black community in Greenwood, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in 1921—should that not be seen as an episode in a long, undeclared war on Black Americans by white supremacists? The devastating riots in cities across America that followed the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. in 1968, and in Los Angeles after the beating of Rodney King in 1992, sure looked like the kind of intercommunal violence that Marche conjures as a specter from the future. Arguably, the real problem for the U.S. is not that it can be torn apart by political violence, but that it has learned to live with it.

This is happening again—even the attempted coup of January 6 is already, for much of the political culture, normalized. Marche is so intent on the coming catastrophe that he seems unable to focus on what is in front of his nose. He writes, for example, that the assault on the Capitol cannot be regarded as an insurrection, because “the rioters were only loosely organized and possessed little political support and no military support.” The third of these claims is broadly true (though military veterans featured heavily among the attackers). The first is at best dubious. The second is bizarre: The attack was incited by the man who was still the sitting president of the United States and had, both at the time and subsequently, widespread support within the Republican Party.

In this context, feverish talk of civil war has the paradoxical effect of making the current reality seem, by way of contrast, not so bad. The comforting fiction that the U.S. used to be a glorious and settled democracy prevents any reckoning with the fact that its current crisis is not a terrible departure from the past but rather a product of the unresolved contradictions of its history. The dark fantasy of Armageddon distracts from the more prosaic and obvious necessity to uphold the law and establish political and legal accountability for those who encourage others to defy it. Scary stories about the future are redundant when the task of dealing with the present is so urgent.

Al Capone Junior
Stargoon
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Al Capone Junior » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:06 pm

I much appreciate the viewpoints of all you various non-merkins. I have, for quite a long time now, been seeking out opportunities to interact with ppl who are very different than me. Ppl that I have nothing against, but simply by circumstances I am rarely or never around. It helps me gain perspective for myself to hear that of someone else. Specifically, the viewpoints of Europeans, Asians, Africans etc shed light on some of the social norms of the US that could really use improving on.

Take guns. Europe mostly put the kibosh on the guns b.llsh.t, presumably bc two gigantic wars left everyone pretty sick of dealing with large amounts of death. But instead of millions killed in two huge wars, we do it on a yearly basis, 20,000 or so per year, or whatever the actual number of excess deaths due to guns actually is. And they are excess deaths. Europeans just don't have those ppl die. Those ppl get to live, and that's better. So few ppl in the US have even entertained this idea.

Not that you guys ain't still all f.cked up now. Because we're in large part just the seeds you planted. :shock: :shock:

But yes, our perspective is all f.cked up.

I have now changed my beliefs in the light of new and better evidence. On a great many things. Including my belief on what is the most important thing we can do in order to have a real and positive effect on the actual real world.

Now I believe that it's human psychology that's most important. I'd like to be on the science bandwagon, and that's still of course of great importance. But taming the limbic system, and all the irrationality that does not serve us well in a modern technological society, is top priority. We can't accept the facts uncovered by science because our very nature has us stymied in a quagmire of irrationality and limbic system derived chaos.

Hmmm... seems like we're at the same point the Vulcans were before they embraced logic. I must say that this does have some appeal.

So explaining what we are, what our skin color really means, would be a great start. This woman's work should be required education for everyone in the world, starting young.

Nina Jablonski - the evolution of human skin pigmentation

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d4KcRMTKImQ

Then perhaps alerting everyone to the fact that there is no god might be a good place to go next. Oh and use all the excess bombs we also have to nuke social media into thin sheets of glass in the desert sands.

Thus my own human failing, of lack of perspective, shines thru. I always come up with grandiose ideas that really do kick f.cking ass, but are impractical and unlikely to ever happen.

Anyway I'm pretty stoned, so I'm probably somewhat incoherent. But it's probably a very good thing that weed is getting way more accepted. I mean who is at their biggest state of douchebag right after they smoke a doob, right?

User avatar
Stranger Mouse
Dorkwood
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: US 2021 Capitol insurrection

Post by Stranger Mouse » Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:27 pm

A rather wonderful 1 minute interview with a couple of Trumpers. Perfection.

https://twitter.com/thegoodliars/status ... WpyIhxDP5g
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

Post Reply