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Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:01 pm
by Tessa K
Everyone is meant to have a smart meter now. I've had one for two years and I can't see the point of it. We're a two person household, not wasteful of electricity, so once the novelty of seeing the daily numbers wore off, it hasn't saved us any money.
Our meter went wrong recently. I was told it was because they were doing an update so I should turn it off for a few days. I did but it's still not working. I'm not sure I can be bothered to ring up again and sit on hold for ages. I might as well turn it off and leave it off.
The bill is read directly from the main meter outside rather than the smart meter. The latest one came today and it's as expected.
Perhaps in a big household of wasteful people it might help rein in the useage. Otherwise - is it just PR?
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:30 pm
by sTeamTraen
Having the bill calculated from a manual reading of the main meter seems weird. The original point of the smart meter was for it to "phone home" with your consumption, at least once a day. I can see my consumption chart online with a day or so delay. (Indeed, there was a lot of paranoia in the US about smart meters once people discovered that they have a SIM card and so are flooding your home with teh 3G [sic] and hence impinging on the purity of your precious bodily fluids.
One of the other uses is that the supplier can provide you with offers that allow you to save money while balancing their demand*. Whether or not that works out cheaper in the long run is a different question, but it can be a win if you do it cannily.
For example, my supplier has two tariffs, A and B. B is about 18% more than A for each unit, but you can choose one of the following free options:
- Two hours a day free (same two hours each day). So if you cook electric while running the washing machine, then put the dishwasher on when you've finished eating, you can get most of that for free
- One day a week free. Maybe you have the family round for hot baths every Sunday. Or perhaps you run a cable from your neighbour who has the same deal on a Wednesday, and reciprocate on a Thursday. I haven't really worked out this one.
- Your 50 most expensive hours each month free, calculated afterwards. This is what we have. So we time clothes washing for when the dishwasher is also on, and we can run the air conditioning or (at the moment) an electric radiator for no extra cost.
The bill tells me that I saved 28% this way last month, so overall I saved 10% (give or take nerdy percent stuff).
Compare this with smart cards for public transport. In Strasbourg a monthly season ticket for the bus/tram network costs €50 at the rack rate, but they can sell it to you for all sorts of discounts --- unemployed people pay just 10%. But because everyone gets on and taps in, and the machine makes the same beep, nobody has to know what you paid.
*I'm not sure how the "Most expensive 50 hours" thing does that, but you can see how it would work if they knew which free days or free two-hour slot people had chosen.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:13 pm
by Tessa K
sTeamTraen wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:30 pm
Having the bill calculated from a manual reading of the main meter seems weird. The original point of the smart meter was for it to "phone home" with your consumption, at least once a day. I can see my consumption chart online with a day or so delay. (Indeed, there was a lot of paranoia in the US about smart meters once people discovered that they have a SIM card and so are flooding your home with teh 3G [
sic] and hence impinging on the purity of your precious bodily fluids.
One of the other uses is that the supplier can provide you with offers that allow you to save money while balancing their demand*. Whether or not that works out cheaper in the long run is a different question, but it can be a win if you do it cannily.
For example, my supplier has two tariffs, A and B. B is about 18% more than A for each unit, but you can choose one of the following free options:
- Two hours a day free (same two hours each day). So if you cook electric while running the washing machine, then put the dishwasher on when you've finished eating, you can get most of that for free
- One day a week free. Maybe you have the family round for hot baths every Sunday. Or perhaps you run a cable from your neighbour who has the same deal on a Wednesday, and reciprocate on a Thursday. I haven't really worked out this one.
- Your 50 most expensive hours each month free, calculated afterwards. This is what we have. So we time clothes washing for when the dishwasher is also on, and we can run the air conditioning or (at the moment) an electric radiator for no extra cost.
The bill tells me that I saved 28% this way last month, so overall I saved 10% (give or take nerdy percent stuff).
Compare this with smart cards for public transport. In Strasbourg a monthly season ticket for the bus/tram network costs €50 at the rack rate, but they can sell it to you for all sorts of discounts --- unemployed people pay just 10%. But because everyone gets on and taps in, and the machine makes the same beep, nobody has to know what you paid.
*I'm not sure how the "Most expensive 50 hours" thing does that, but you can see how it would work if they knew which free days or free two-hour slot people had chosen.
From what the person at the power company told me, the actual meter sends the reading in, so perhaps the smart thing in my kitchen is just for me as a guide. I'd assumed that was the 'smart' part of it but I guess the meter outside is the smart thing from what you say. According to that I'm using about 9p of electricity a day, which I'm clearly not.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:29 pm
by Hunting Dog
We will probably never know...
Eon want to change our gas nd electric metersmto smart versions. To change the gas one they need to check the flue which is in the loft. They hve sent one person round who couldn't do it because he needed a ladder trained operative to help. They keep trying to make us book new appointments for it but every time we ask they still can't actually send the required two man team..... this has been going on for a few years now!
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:57 pm
by FlammableFlower
Tessa K wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:13 pm
sTeamTraen wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:30 pm
Having the bill calculated from a manual reading of the main meter seems weird. The original point of the smart meter was for it to "phone home" with your consumption, at least once a day. I can see my consumption chart online with a day or so delay. (Indeed, there was a lot of paranoia in the US about smart meters once people discovered that they have a SIM card and so are flooding your home with teh 3G [
sic] and hence impinging on the purity of your precious bodily fluids.
One of the other uses is that the supplier can provide you with offers that allow you to save money while balancing their demand*. Whether or not that works out cheaper in the long run is a different question, but it can be a win if you do it cannily.
For example, my supplier has two tariffs, A and B. B is about 18% more than A for each unit, but you can choose one of the following free options:
- Two hours a day free (same two hours each day). So if you cook electric while running the washing machine, then put the dishwasher on when you've finished eating, you can get most of that for free
- One day a week free. Maybe you have the family round for hot baths every Sunday. Or perhaps you run a cable from your neighbour who has the same deal on a Wednesday, and reciprocate on a Thursday. I haven't really worked out this one.
- Your 50 most expensive hours each month free, calculated afterwards. This is what we have. So we time clothes washing for when the dishwasher is also on, and we can run the air conditioning or (at the moment) an electric radiator for no extra cost.
The bill tells me that I saved 28% this way last month, so overall I saved 10% (give or take nerdy percent stuff).
Compare this with smart cards for public transport. In Strasbourg a monthly season ticket for the bus/tram network costs €50 at the rack rate, but they can sell it to you for all sorts of discounts --- unemployed people pay just 10%. But because everyone gets on and taps in, and the machine makes the same beep, nobody has to know what you paid.
*I'm not sure how the "Most expensive 50 hours" thing does that, but you can see how it would work if they knew which free days or free two-hour slot people had chosen.
From what the person at the power company told me, the actual meter sends the reading in, so perhaps the smart thing in my kitchen is just for me as a guide. I'd assumed that was the 'smart' part of it but I guess the meter outside is the smart thing from what you say. According to that I'm using about 9p of electricity a day, which I'm clearly not.
I think you're right - we are still having problems with our electricity smart meter as well as the display. The gas side of things is fine however...
First the display seemed to be a factor of ten too high in it's power used to price conversion, so they did some remote update which promptly stopped it being able to tell us any thing about electricity use and also buggered up their reporting so we had to go back to manual meter readings...
I think they're fine in many cases to get people to realise what they use (or rather not think about wasting), but once you've made as many reductions/changes to how you do stuff to bring your usage and bills down, then they're not really doing much. Similarly if you are, for whatever reason, already living as frugally as possible, then it won't really help much.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:50 am
by Millennie Al
Smart meters are useful for two things:
- The supply company can read the meter remotely whenever they like, making it much cheaper and easier and allowing them to gather data on usage
- The supply company can cut off supply remotely, making it much easier and cheaper to do so.
You'll notice that neither of these is directly beneficial to the customer.
If you're given something at no cost by a commercial organisation, you can guarantee that it's for their benefit and not yours.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:12 pm
by Ladysavage
Ours hasn't worked since last summer, it's the 2nd one in 4 years that's b0rked. Dread to think what our power Bill's are since we're all home most of the time
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:08 pm
by FlammableFlower
Millennie Al wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:50 am
Smart meters are useful for two things:
- The supply company can read the meter remotely whenever they like, making it much cheaper and easier and allowing them to gather data on usage
- The supply company can cut off supply remotely, making it much easier and cheaper to do so.
You'll notice that neither of these is directly beneficial to the customer.
If you're given something at no cost by a commercial organisation, you can guarantee that it's for their benefit and not yours.
I didn't know they could cut supply off remotely - thought they only reported.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:23 pm
by bjn
Still haven’t got one.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:34 pm
by science_fox
We're 3 years into having a faulty (non-smart) meter, the display stopped working. We get estimates I pay them, the company doesn't complain too much. They have offered to replace both elec and gas to presumably smart meters. I've said sure, I'm home outside of working hours, they've declined to arranged an appointment at that time, and so the matter rests.... I'm sure at some stage I'll get the 'benefits' of smart meters, but till then I follow with interest. There was a nice add telling you it saves power, but never an explanation of how.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:10 pm
by Herainestold
The point is it is just another way to track you, collect data on you and profit from you.
Once we have enough green sustainable energy, households should be billed a flat rate based on the size of the residence.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:44 pm
by Grumble
I’ve got a smart meter. It was of a type that doesn’t have a display inside the house, the only point was to report the reading to the supplier. I changed supplier shortly after it was installed, turns out no other supplier can read it. I believe the new generation of smart meters have fixed this, but it seems a bit of an oversight. I report a reading every month myself.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:21 pm
by Grumble
Grumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:44 pm
I’ve got a smart meter. It was of a type that doesn’t have a display inside the house, the only point was to report the reading to the supplier. I changed supplier shortly after it was installed, turns out no other supplier can read it. I believe the new generation of smart meters have fixed this, but it seems a bit of an oversight. I report a reading every month myself.
I meant it doesn’t have a separate stand alone display.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:46 am
by Bird on a Fire
Inspired by this thread, I decided I was smarter than any meter and went on the electicrity company's website to look at my consumption. Handily they break it down by time of day already, so it didn't actually have to do much maths. I'm now on a split-time tariff where everything is half price between 10pm and 8am, which is when I use most power anyway because I'm a night owl, plus that's when it's darker and colder anyway.
I'd love to get solar panels fitted, as there's a deal here (€16/month for 4 years) and they'd pay for themselves pretty quickly anyway. Unfortunately we don't own the roof of the building, and the south side of our apartment is all windows anyway.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:29 am
by Millennie Al
FlammableFlower wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:08 pm
I didn't know they could cut supply off remotely - thought they only reported.
Yes, they keep that very quiet, don't they! If you read FAQs and other material published by advocates of smart meters, you'd get the impression that the meters cannot disconnect you, but very careful reading shows that the reason they cannot is that that does not comply with the proper procedures and legal requirements - not that it is technically impossible. So even if remote disconnection is not typically used today, once enough people are irrevocably committed to having a smart meter, I expect it'll become the standard way of disconnecting people. Currently, it would cause lots of bad publicity and discourage people switching to smart meters.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:03 am
by Martin Y
If they can remotely shut off the supply then that sounds like a pretty compelling reason to continue to avoid getting a smart meter fitted.
You can just imagine the confusion around switching suppliers, with one expecting some final payment on erroneous info and another confused over start dates or not correctly assigning initial payments to the right property and their both assuming it's each other's job to switch stuff off or on. Giving anonymous people working with notoriously poor information arbitrary powers to remotely turn the heating off at a house they've never seen is a bl..dy terrible idea. That is an ocean of stupid into which I shall not dip a toe without seeing a compelling advantage.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:06 am
by Lew Dolby
So, how long before someone works out to hack a smart meter remotely. ??
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:14 am
by Martin Y
Lew Dolby wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:06 am
So, how long before someone works out to hack a smart meter remotely. ??
[Russian foreign intelligence] Challenge accepted [/Russian foreign intelligence]
[Chinese naval intelligence] <quiet smile> [/Chinese naval intelligence]
Seriously though, I've said it before, in any future conflict the chaos that could be unleashed on another country by someone who can randomly turn everything off or indeed turn everything on would be extraordinary.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:20 am
by shpalman
If they turned everything off and on again then it would all just start working better.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:21 am
by Martin Y
shpalman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:20 am
If they turned everything off and on again then it would all just start working better.
Worth a try.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:28 am
by JQH
Martin Y wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:21 am
shpalman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:20 am
If they turned everything off and on again then it would all just start working better.
Worth a try.
Would it work with the Government?
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:30 am
by shpalman
JQH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:28 am
Martin Y wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:21 am
shpalman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:20 am
If they turned everything off and on again then it would all just start working better.
Worth a try.
Would it work with the Government?
Didn't work in 2017 or 2019 did it?
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:48 am
by JQH
I was thinking more on the lines of stopping their hearts then restarting them with those shocky things.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:39 pm
by shpalman
JQH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:48 am
I was thinking more on the lines of stopping their hearts then restarting them with those shocky things.
You don't shock a flatline.
Re: Smart meters - what's the point?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:43 pm
by JQH
shpalman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:39 pm
JQH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:48 am
I was thinking more on the lines of stopping their hearts then restarting them with those shocky things.
You don't shock a flatline.
Well, however they restart flatlines.