Reddittors vs Wall Street

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lpm
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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by lpm » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:07 am

sheldrake wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
There are certainly non-Thatcherite Conservatives (I'm using the Big C for now so as not to cause confusion with social conservatives who may vote Labour), but they still tend to like the idea of thriving small businesses and people trying to be self-reliant. It's closely tied to their concepts of 'personal responsibility' and even 'personal freedom' to a degree. Where they tend to part company from Thatcherites is that they often also hold socially conservative views that trump economic concerns (e.g. they might not like Sunday trading, or think that Murdoch-owned media is vulgar etc..)

I would say Peter Hitchens is a vocal example of a 'non-Thatcherite conservative'. I'm a lot more future oriented than that, but a world where all the windswept high-streets consist of boarded up shopfronts, fried chicken takeaways and slot-machine arcades whilst everything else is ordered online from 2 tax-evading megacorps is grim as f.ck from my perspective.

I would say both the main political parties are completely dominated by corporate-sponsored neoliberals now, and have been for a couple of decades.
These are exactly the voters who Labour could capture. Blair took a chunk of them.

Starmer needs to look closely at these beliefs because there's a big overlap with traditional Labour values. Decent jobs with decent pay for decent hard working folk is a Labour vote winner that appeals across the spectrum.

Corbyn f.cked it because he came across as being against thriving small business along side being against the tax-evading megacorps. The tabloids exaggerated, of course, but he was never interested in self-reliance and personal responsibility when he could gaze lovingly at 1970s socialism instead. Biden always remembered the socially conservative views of his voting coalition and their general lack of interest in the crap that excites left-wing student politicians.

The character of "Boris" fakes an interest in personal responsibility and thriving small businesses while Johnson gets on with serving the megacorps and raking in the corporate sponsorship.
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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:54 am

lpm wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:07 am
sheldrake wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
There are certainly non-Thatcherite Conservatives (I'm using the Big C for now so as not to cause confusion with social conservatives who may vote Labour), but they still tend to like the idea of thriving small businesses and people trying to be self-reliant. It's closely tied to their concepts of 'personal responsibility' and even 'personal freedom' to a degree. Where they tend to part company from Thatcherites is that they often also hold socially conservative views that trump economic concerns (e.g. they might not like Sunday trading, or think that Murdoch-owned media is vulgar etc..)

I would say Peter Hitchens is a vocal example of a 'non-Thatcherite conservative'. I'm a lot more future oriented than that, but a world where all the windswept high-streets consist of boarded up shopfronts, fried chicken takeaways and slot-machine arcades whilst everything else is ordered online from 2 tax-evading megacorps is grim as f.ck from my perspective.

I would say both the main political parties are completely dominated by corporate-sponsored neoliberals now, and have been for a couple of decades.
These are exactly the voters who Labour could capture. Blair took a chunk of them.

Starmer needs to look closely at these beliefs because there's a big overlap with traditional Labour values. Decent jobs with decent pay for decent hard working folk is a Labour vote winner that appeals across the spectrum.

Corbyn f.cked it because he came across as being against thriving small business along side being against the tax-evading megacorps. The tabloids exaggerated, of course, but he was never interested in self-reliance and personal responsibility when he could gaze lovingly at 1970s socialism instead. Biden always remembered the socially conservative views of his voting coalition and their general lack of interest in the crap that excites left-wing student politicians.

The character of "Boris" fakes an interest in personal responsibility and thriving small businesses while Johnson gets on with serving the megacorps and raking in the corporate sponsorship.
Blair is now a hate-figure to many of them. My late father decided to vote leave a few days before the referendum precisely because he saw Peter Mandelson and Blair advocating for us staying in. In his mind those two advocating something was firm evidence that it was an 'establishment stitchup'. He had been a lifelong Labour party member until about 2010.

Starmer is also basically a corporate sponsored neoliberal in their eyes. (I'm sorry but it's closely tied to vocal support for Remain in the perception of these conservatives. I know I'm not going to convince anybody here that leaving the EU was a good idea, but hopefully I can faithfully represent the views of small c conservatives who voted out).

A labour movement that might win them over looks more like this I think:-
https://www.bluelabour.org/

Starmer and the people around him, perhaps without intending to, come across as people who are much more bothered about the nuances of identity politics than, say, private equity firms driving manufacturing companies deep into debt, disappearing with the cash and leaving the workforce screwed. Or taking real action against international tax arbitrage.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Sciolus » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:14 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:43 pm
I want to see Amazon paying *at least* the same percentage tax on its *revenue* that the tenuously surviving family greengrocers in the crappy midlands town I live in has to.

Tax arbitrage is bleeding big swathes of the UK dry. The windswept little town centres and estates. The kids born into generational debt servitude. f.ck it all. This is not the jealousy of the left. I still believe in being as self-reliant as possible. But there are f.cking rules.
I said this several years ago on the old forum. At the time you disagreed strongly for obscure reasons. I'm glad you've finally come round.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Aitch » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm

plodder wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:58 am
lol. There are no rules, ...
Well, there's the Golden Rule...
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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:39 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:14 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:43 pm
I want to see Amazon paying *at least* the same percentage tax on its *revenue* that the tenuously surviving family greengrocers in the crappy midlands town I live in has to.

Tax arbitrage is bleeding big swathes of the UK dry. The windswept little town centres and estates. The kids born into generational debt servitude. f.ck it all. This is not the jealousy of the left. I still believe in being as self-reliant as possible. But there are f.cking rules.
I said this several years ago on the old forum. At the time you disagreed strongly for obscure reasons. I'm glad you've finally come round.
Last time I wanted to cut everybody's taxes down to the level the multinationals were paying. I don't now. I think if Amazon etc.. were paying more, then the smaller business could pay less though.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by plodder » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:46 pm

oh god. you want to troll us with our own common sense.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:40 pm

No, I've just changed my mind. There's perhaps some room to lower the UK Government's share of the economy without making life barbaric for the worse off, but not much.

I am not in favour of the economy being reorganised into a big hierarchy with tax-dodging megacorps sucking custom out of the small businesses though. That's more like fascism than my concept of a free market. We'll all end up employees in some great pyramid structure serving feudal billionaire lords whilst the places we live turn into the hollowed out shells. f.ck that. My values are about personal freedom and individual dignity; sometimes that's best served by pushing back on the state, but I'm increasingly aware that sometimes you have to tell Google, Amazon etc.. where to go f.ck themselves.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by nekomatic » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:37 pm

Save me from having to click the link: is “Blue Labour” still Labour, but for racists?
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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by monkey » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:39 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:37 pm
Save me from having to click the link: is “Blue Labour” still Labour, but for racists?
I think they prefer "social consevatives", but yeah, they haven't changed much.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:45 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:40 pm
I am not in favour of the economy being reorganised into a big hierarchy with tax-dodging megacorps sucking custom out of the small businesses though.
Well, you'll have to explain in more detail. Assuming you don't think we should be all subsistence farmers, presumably there is some level of megacorp which you agree with.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:18 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:37 pm
Save me from having to click the link: is “Blue Labour” still Labour, but for racists?
Only if your definition of 'racist' basically encompasses everybody except student activists and antifa members, and a few middle-aged fools who are scared of their disapproval. It's basically the moderate wing of Labour as it was before Blair.
Last edited by sheldrake on Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:19 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:45 pm
Well, you'll have to explain in more detail. Assuming you don't think we should be all subsistence farmers, presumably there is some level of megacorp which you agree with.
I think you somehow misinterpreted 'ensure they're taxed at least the same rate tiny family business are taxed at' to mean 'destroy them or make them illegal'.

I'm not talking about regulating large businesses out of existence, just getting rid of weird positive feedback loops that make life disproportionately harder for the small businesses. Do you remember back when different towns actually had different shops in them, with family names above the doors you didn't always recognise?

Perhaps I'm a wild-eyed communist, but it seems like getting Billionaires to pay tax at simillar rates to a GP or a succesful plumber should be desirable and even possible.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by plodder » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:03 am

If you’re looking for practical suggestions then perhaps re-read all the threads on all the forums when you vehemently argued the precise opposite, this time paying attention to what people were saying to you.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:02 am

plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:03 am
If you’re looking for practical suggestions then perhaps re-read all the threads on all the forums when you vehemently argued the precise opposite, this time paying attention to what people were saying to you.
That's not very constructive. I'd still like to drop the UK government's share of the economy to the region of Republic of Ireland or Switzerland.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by plodder » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:25 am

sheldrake wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:02 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:03 am
If you’re looking for practical suggestions then perhaps re-read all the threads on all the forums when you vehemently argued the precise opposite, this time paying attention to what people were saying to you.
That's not very constructive. I'd still like to drop the UK government's share of the economy to the region of Republic of Ireland or Switzerland.
It would be extremely constructive for the rest of us.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:38 am

plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:25 am
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:02 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:03 am
If you’re looking for practical suggestions then perhaps re-read all the threads on all the forums when you vehemently argued the precise opposite, this time paying attention to what people were saying to you.
That's not very constructive. I'd still like to drop the UK government's share of the economy to the region of Republic of Ireland or Switzerland.
It would be extremely constructive for the rest of us.
If you could just pick out the key posts with great, original insights that are well backed by economic data rather than anecdotes and list them that would be very helpful.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by plodder » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:09 pm

I’d go for the ones where you had most pushback, they likely have the most merit.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:36 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:09 pm
I’d go for the ones where you had most pushback, they likely have the most merit.

I doubt that but I am willing for you to pick a good one for me.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:51 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:40 pm
No, I've just changed my mind.
Nice one. More people should do more of this. (Some, of course, more than others ;) )
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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:52 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:25 am
sheldrake wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:02 am
plodder wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:03 am
If you’re looking for practical suggestions then perhaps re-read all the threads on all the forums when you vehemently argued the precise opposite, this time paying attention to what people were saying to you.
That's not very constructive. I'd still like to drop the UK government's share of the economy to the region of Republic of Ireland or Switzerland.
It would be extremely constructive for the rest of us.
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go off plodder 😂
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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:25 pm

I'm still waiting for plodder to pick his top 10

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:54 pm

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:52 am

You know if Plodder goes away and tries to gather together all the posts showing great economic insight he's going to find 8 posts by LPM and 2 by people who don't really understand why a country can't just increase public spending indefinitely but who stated their views with real empathy and feeling.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:54 am

sheldrake wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:19 pm
I'm not talking about regulating large businesses out of existence, just getting rid of weird positive feedback loops that make life disproportionately harder for the small businesses. Do you remember back when different towns actually had different shops in them, with family names above the doors you didn't always recognise?
No. But my grandparents have often remarked on changes such as those, saying which shop used to be where. Such changes are inevitable.

It used to be the case that a large proportion of the population was devoted to farming the land. This was difficult, strenuous work and yielded very little profit. Since then, farming has changed so that nowadays only a tiny fraction of the population farm the land and do so in ever larger farms with more and more automation. This is a very good thing as it means that people are not condemned to a life of hard work and poverty.

As part of the Industrial Revolution, the textile industry underwent major changes. At one time a lot of work was done by people in their own homes. When this was superseded by factory work, the Luddites protested and vandalised factories. They could not stop the inevitable consequence of economies of scale.

The family shop is now in decline. And rightly so. Such a shop means that the owners and their family must work very long hours and if children are unwilling to take over the shop when their parents want to retire, the parents must sell. There was a time when it was considered reasonable for children to be born into a station in life and expect to stay there, but nowadays children of shop owners should have the same opportunities as everyone else.
Perhaps I'm a wild-eyed communist, but it seems like getting Billionaires to pay tax at simillar rates to a GP or a succesful plumber should be desirable and even possible.
I wouldn't say that exactly. I haven't seen enough of your posts to tell if you're a communist.

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Re: Reddittors vs Wall Street

Post by sheldrake » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:59 am

Children of shop owners do have the same opportunities as everybody else, and newsagents and small convenience stores still exist as family businesses, but some markets are dominated by businesses that undergo a kind of cancerous growth once they tip over the scale where they can radically reduce their relative tax bill.

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