Toxic masculinity & femininity

[Grumble]

Watching Rhod Gilbert Stand Up To Infertility last night (which is well worth a watch) there was a point at which toxic masculinity was brought up. The inability of men to talk about sensitive issues, in this case male infertility, leading to heartbreak and worse, was part of the driving force for Rhod doing the show. As much as comedians have a purpose at all it’s surely that they break taboos and examine society in a way that allows deeper subjects to be examined, but Rhod looked genuinely uncomfortable and emotional at times at becoming the face of sh.t jizz. It was a very brave programme and I hope it moves the needle.

Clearly there are things, like inability to discuss sensitive subjects, that make up toxic masculinity. There are also things that mainly affect women, such as body image issues, but I never hear of them being called toxic femininity. Would it be fair to describe them as such? I wonder if the term toxic masculinity is helpful or not, at least in the context of getting men talking.

[nezumi]

I don't know about anyone else, but I definitely describe toxic femininity as such. I don't mean normal girly girl stuff like wearing makeup or choosing a traditionally feminine occupation, I mean stuff like women being cross-examined about when children will happen, or the idea that not wearing makeup makes you less woman*, or having entire careers written out of your future because they're "not ladylike". Then there's ultra thin models, paying £90 for moisturising cream because it has a made-up chemical in it... Yeah, femininity definitely has its toxicity. There's the bitchiness about fat/thin, style, it's just women judging other women and they need to cut it out!

I don't think it's as bad for women as it is for men now, because feminism has done some good (while it has an awful lot to answer for**) and women are under a bit less pressure than they used to be. Men, sadly, seem to have been forgotten. So now women have some power and more rights and young men don't seem to know what on earth to do. At least round here, there aren't a lot of MAN jobs left since all the chemical and heavy industry disappeared so a very high proportion of young men have ended up with nothing. I'd also argue that the positive education of young men has been eroded to a high degree, very much due to a trend in education away from physical and manual skills like metalwork, woodwork etc***. I think this lack of suitable education and jobs has left these young men with a lack of direction which leaves a great big gaping hole for the toxic version of masculinity to creep in.


* I know a few trans ladies and that comes up a lot, the idea that you're not really trans if you don't like skirts or makeup. Being a woman is a lot deeper than apprearance!

** The right to work does not mean everybody, including both parents, should have to work, all the time to keep a roof over their heads. Capitalism really took advantage of feminism here and the leading feminists of the time should have seen this and adapted their strategy!

*** Equality should never have meant getting rid of "boy" classes, it should have meant girls *also* doing those classes!

[Stephanie]

I think it's because toxic masculinity encompasses things that potentially lead to violence? So your example of men being afraid to discuss emotional subjects is... appearing weak perhaps?

Women having body image problems don't usually lead to violence per se, unless we include things like self harm and eating disorders, which are typically self directed.

That would be my understanding off the top of my head.

[lpm]

When a phrase stops working the way it's intended, it's time to drop the phrase. No point in obstinately trying to educate people instead of communicating better.

Too many people hear "toxic masculinity" and think it means "masculinity is toxic". Or pretend to think this is what it means, for some silly debating trick. On a previous forum a member got so enraged by the term he was blinded to that the actual meaning of toxic masculinity is the damage to men through substance abuse or suicide or posturing violence. Too many people respond by pointing out stereotypical masculine traits that aren't toxic, e.g. saying "I like watching football on TV and talking about it in the pub, what's wrong with that".

Instead of trying to lump together various traits that damage men into a single umbrella term, it might be better to simply name them directly, e.g. "the traditional cultural norm of homophobia causes harm to men" or "the normalisation of aggressive and bullying traits in boys leads to those boys harming and being harmed by male violence".

Likewise, isn't it better to simply say "cultural norms about female body shape lead to eating disorders", rather than try to include it in a wider grouping of "toxic femininity"?

[lpm]

ETA: there's also the problem that it's become politicised in America as a part of its culture war. Which means the term is being leveraged to cause damage - the concept of toxic masculinity has been deemed to be "Democrat" so right wingers have deliberately embraced toxic masculine traits as a very good thing to be encouraged.

[Woodchopper]

When a phrase stops working the way it's intended, it's time to drop the phrase. No point in obstinately trying to educate people instead of communicating better.

Too many people hear "toxic masculinity" and think it means "masculinity is toxic". Or pretend to think this is what it means, for some silly debating trick. On a previous forum a member got so enraged by the term he was blinded to that the actual meaning of toxic masculinity is the damage to men through substance abuse or suicide or posturing violence. Too many people respond by pointing out stereotypical masculine traits that aren't toxic, e.g. saying "I like watching football on TV and talking about it in the pub, what's wrong with that".

Instead of trying to lump together various traits that damage men into a single umbrella term, it might be better to simply name them directly, e.g. "the traditional cultural norm of homophobia causes harm to men" or "the normalisation of aggressive and bullying traits in boys leads to those boys harming and being harmed by male violence".

Likewise, isn't it better to simply say "cultural norms about female body shape lead to eating disorders", rather than try to include it in a wider grouping of "toxic femininity"?

I agree, the term seems to cover everything from social norms and expectations through to feelings of personal identity. Any discussion needs to start with agreeing upon what people mean and it might as well be easier to just directly discuss specific ideas or behaviour.

The term also seems to repel a lot of the people who'd benefit from thinking about these issues.

[Stephanie]

I wasn't defending it as a term, merely explaining why there was no equivalent according to what I've read, seen, etc.

[El Pollo Diablo]

I think one of the key factors which inspires toxic masculinity (extreme masculinity?) is men being unable to accept behaviours or hobbies or activities which carry any whiff of femininity - the threat of belittling or condemnation from male peers is quite strong, especially earlier on in life. Anything at all that can be linked to femininity - a higher voice, a girly name, wanting to have sex with men, liking the "wrong" bands, sitting down to piss, "girly" activities or hobbies, etc., particularly during teenage and early adult life for men - can result in awful bullying and exclusion. It's a massive social pressure, and will of course have a huge impact on how men define to themselves what masculinity means. It shouldn't then be a surprise that in those formative years, plenty of men define that masculinity in an extreme and damaging way.

I think to that extent, masculinity is almost a definition by exclusion, and that's different from how femininity is defined.

[Grumble]

To be fair toxic masculinity was only mentioned by name once in the show, but there was a lot of “men don’t talk and it’s killing us” to quote Benjamin Zephaniah which was as good a way as any to sum up the undercurrent of the show. I think a lot of men would be interested in a show about male infertility, and talking about male infertility as a consequence, but the word toxic is toxic, ironically, because it’s so negative.

[snoozeofreason]

Right, you people have just jinxed me! As soon as I finished reading this thread, my car went wrong. It is at such moments that I hold my manhood most cheap, because I know nothing about motor mechanics - despite possessing a fine set of XY chromosomes and a degree in Physics. Mrs. Snooze can get away with playing a poor lost girly in such circumstances, even though she has a much better instinct for mechanical devices than me, whereas I feel the full weight of the expectations imposed on my sex by the Patriarchy!

I could probably fix my mechanical incompetence by going to evening classes or something, but I think that the limited time I have left on earth is probably best spent on my Japanese and music lessons (in fact that's probably best for everyone, because I'd go from knowing nothing about cars to knowing very little, and incompetent motor mechanics are more of a menace than bad piano players or language-manglers).

Either way, I have phoned the garage, and nodded my head sagely when the lady on the desk suggested that it was a coil spring (as if, being a man, I knew all about coil springs). So my car should be fixed by tomorrow and another blow will have been delivered to the Patriarchy and its autonormative masculinity.

[Grumble]

To be fair toxic masculinity was only mentioned by name once in the show, but there was a lot of “men don’t talk and it’s killing us” to quote Benjamin Zephaniah which was as good a way as any to sum up the undercurrent of the show. I think a lot of men would be interested in a show about male infertility, and talking about male infertility as a consequence, but the word toxic is toxic, ironically, because it’s so negative.

Rereading this I’m not sure my intended meaning came across. What might be called “toxic masculinity” at least in this context was tackled head on and that was great. The words themselves weren’t used except once - and then by a woman, which is interesting in itself.

[Woodchopper]

Well that was an epic derail, which now has its own thread

Teaching essential life skills
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