HS2

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IvanV
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Re: HS2

Post by IvanV » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:35 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:27 am
But then the next major project will also feature whatever shiny fancy cutting edge best-in-class everything there is in the future.
Small projects are also a problem. And I think shiny fancy etc is part of the problem. For example, TfL were quoting £700m just to upgrade the pedestrian access to Holborn station. There is an awful lot of stuff like that which needs doing across the London Underground network, and it needs doing within the next few decades, not centuries. I think they now realise if such is the cost of dealing with just one station, then they just haven't got anywhere near enough money in the period of time that is required, and large parts of the network are just going to fall apart through lack of money to fund renewals in anything like the timescale required. There just is nowhere near the amount of money to put so much of it on just one station, relatively important station (nearest to my office) though it is.

A couple of years ago I went to a conference on railway station developments, both in the sense of building new stations, and also using railway stations to encourage economic development. The Dutch head of railway stations and some colleagues were there and made a presentation. Alongside was a presentation on the new railway station at Meridian Water, a new £46m commuter/local railway station serving a large development area in the Lee Valley in North London, on a 2-track railway that required no realignment. The railway station at Southend Airport, a £30m station on a 2-track railway requiring no realignment, came up. It was clear that the chins of the Dutch contingent had clanged to the ground, long way though it is for a Dutch chin, at the costs of these projects. They thought it was a long way beyond stupid.

I believe Chiltern Railway succeeded in building the actual station at Warwick Parkway, a new station on a 2-track railway, as part of Project Evergreen for less than £1m. The car park and access was separately costed, so that's makes the comparison somewhat misleading, as that would be included in the cost of the other projects. It did subsequently get a bit of smartening up. But it makes you wonder what the difference is between a £1m station and a £46m station, on a plain, straight 2-track railway.

The Dutch mentioned the Luchtsingel, a 400m footbridge, with multiple entrances, creating pedestrian connections across several thoroughfares including a 4-track railway and an 8-lane road, assisting with the revitalisation of some areas near Rotterdam Centraal station which had become severed. I came away with the impression it had been built for €400,000. That contrasted very badly with UK costs, as you'd struggle to build a basic footbridge over a 2-track railway line in a small town for that in Britain. Though I now have difficulty getting a source for the cost, and I suspect that was the cost for just one of 6 phases of construction, or perhaps just the design phase, and it must have cost a lot more. Though it would be nice to find the actual cost, and then we could try to compare it with spending £50m on the Garden Bridge before even putting a spade in the ground... I'm afraid google didn't help, but maybe someone who knows more Dutch than me could find something.

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shpalman
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Re: HS2

Post by shpalman » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:27 am

Apparently it cost €3 million to put a couple of platforms on the 2-track Chiasso-Como-Monza line where it passes close to Camerlata Station (on the Como-Saronno-Milano Cadorna line) and build a walkway from one to the other (and a bridge to get to the far platform). Still waiting for the extra parking spaces.

The two lines used to be State Railway and "North Milan" owned, respectively, and would literally cross each other but were entirely separate. Now they're both run by a single operator.

It costs less than €5 for the ~50 km trip to Milan from Como on a regional train.
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:35 am

Basic footbridge unit cost for planning is £700k, so about double, though the cost of bridges varies enormously. Building a PRM-compliant bridge is more like £2m.

I get the sense (based on little to no evidence) that much of the cost of erecting a footbridge here isn't the job itself, but the legal processes, getting local consent, etc.
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Re: HS2

Post by shpalman » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:41 am

This footbridge (over a road) cost "a little over €1 million" apparently.

Image
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:50 am

shpalman wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:27 am
It costs less than €5 for the ~50 km trip to Milan from Como on a regional train.
Yes, you'd expect it to be so cheap, given that the Italian railway is considerably more subsidised than the GB railway (in normal times at least).
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:56 am

This footbridge at Tidemills is estimated at around £5-6m, and is a bespoke design because the area is a national park and an area of beauty.
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Re: HS2

Post by shpalman » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:16 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:50 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:27 am
It costs less than €5 for the ~50 km trip to Milan from Como on a regional train.
Yes, you'd expect it to be so cheap, given that the Italian railway is considerably more subsidised than the GB railway (in normal times at least).
It means it's actually worth it to use compared to driving, even if I'm only driving to the Bovisa campus; I used to drive to Bovisa regularly in the evenings for social reasons but always take the train if it's during the day (e.g. for teaching). Even better is that if I'm only in Milan for a pointlessly short time, I can get back during the 3 hours that the original ticket was valid for i.e. the return trip is free.

A monthly go-anywhere-in-Lombardy pass costs about €110 I think. I'll probably get one in October when I'll be teaching more centrally in Milan because I'll need the metro;* a monthly train-only pass between Milan and Como costs about €80 but the monthly train-plus-Milan-metro pass is only marginally less than the pass for the whole of Lombardy.

* - actually the within-Milan public transport is all integrated on the same tickets.

The disadvantage is that they tend to go on strike on Fridays.

(Other disadvantages are that the line is only single track from Camerlata down into Como and to the lake, and that the level crossings tend to knacker the traffic in the centre especially at rush hour.)
Last edited by shpalman on Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HS2

Post by shpalman » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:19 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:56 am
This footbridge at Tidemills is estimated at around £5-6m, and is a bespoke design because the area is a national park and an area of beauty.
The first drawing makes it look like it's not going over anything and not coming down at the other end.

What about this and this in Lincoln?
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Re: HS2

Post by shpalman » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:29 am

And now completely off topic since it's a road bridge over a small river but this.
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:25 am

Reports in on Sunday that the government is indeed close to committing political harakiri by scrapping the Leeds branch of HS2.

Nigel Harris has done a rare thing of posting his editorial from the current edition of Rail magazine on the twitter:

https://twitter.com/RAIL/status/1429690550719029248

Everyone should read it in full.
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Re: HS2

Post by shpalman » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:14 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:50 am
shpalman wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:27 am
It costs less than €5 for the ~50 km trip to Milan from Como on a regional train.
Yes, you'd expect it to be so cheap, given that the Italian railway is considerably more subsidised than the GB railway (in normal times at least).
I was just figuring out which would be the optimal tickets to use when I have to go and teach in the centre of Milan in September and October and I noticed that a monthly rail-only Como-Milan season ticket has dropped from €80 to €57, while the monthly Como-Milan-plus-Milan-public-transport season ticket has dropped from €105 to €84. This means it's not worth it to get the monthly go-anywhere-in-Lombardy this time, which still costs €108. It is, however, worth it to get the monthly ticket for September even if lessons only start half way through but I won't buy it yet in case the covid situation sends everything online again.
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Re: HS2

Post by plodder » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:38 am

Here's Greens for HS2 putting the case for, well, HS2, in a detailed podcast for the byline times. It's good.

https://podfollow.com/1522910878/episod ... 1434b/view

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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:47 pm

Looks like Leeds is getting canned.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 34935.html

The branch line, not the city. Though now that I mention it...
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Re: HS2

Post by TopBadger » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:02 am

Boris betraying his levelling up agenda? Colour me shocked.
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