HS2

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monkey
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Re: HS2

Post by monkey » Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:46 pm

I'm about the same age as JQH. I remember lots about Tory Sleaze before the election, but older me now recognises that as the papers turning against the Tories, because I'm pretty sure That Sort of Thing only ever comes out when Mr Newspaperowner decides it's convenient to ruin a career.

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Re: HS2

Post by IvanV » Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:02 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:18 pm
Has there ever been a time when the Tories were this insane? What was it like in 1996? I was 12 and wasn't paying attention.
What happened in the 1990s was that the economy was sh.t for a long time. After the Lawson boom came the crash, but first we hung there in midair for a bit like in the cartoons. The huge house price crash eventually came in 1989. The construction sector died. Large numbers of ordinary people were in negative equity, getting their houses dispossessed, couldn't move because if they did they were bankrupt, etc. I bought a house in 1988, and shortly after interest rates went up to 15% and I was paying out 60% of my post-tax income in interest payments on an interest-only mortgage.

And it went on and on and on. House prices definitively fell for 4 years, and didn't really start nudging up (after correction for inflation) until 1997. And John Major was this uncharismatic figure, portrayed by spitting image as the grey man. He had a "back to basics" morality push, which is the refuge of someone who has run out of ideas. Unfortunately we didn't discover he was actually porking Edwina Currie until much later. They would have lost the 1992 election if the labour party hadn't been so sh.t. But labour reformed itself, put in Tony Blair, and they were destroyed.

Now a substantial part of the reason the Tories were so hapless in the 90s was that Thatcher had destroyed most of the competent people in the party, so she had no opposition. That is why we ended up with the vacuous figure of Major to replace her. But the present lot are in much worse shape than the Tories in 92/97. They have cleared out the ranks of competence and moderation much more completely than Thatcher did.

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Re: HS2

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:54 pm

Yes, 1992-1997 was the fag end of the Tory dominance of the 80s. The difference between then and now was that Major was Prime Minister throughout the whole period and he held the line against the swivel eyed euro-obsessives. The Major government was useless but at least they didn’t manage to do anything very destructive.

By 2019 the obsessives were in control and the country left the EU and went through five prime ministers in six years. The only modern period that is similar is the five prime ministers between 1922 and 1929, though that was a bit different as Ramsay McDonald and Stanly Baldwin had two goes each.

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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:08 pm

I guess 1951-1964 also was quite similar, when the tories f.ck up they do it good and proper
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:32 pm

The Times is reporting that HS2 WILL go to the ball Euston

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2- ... -0hwxnk5w9
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Re: HS2

Post by headshot » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:15 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:32 pm
The Times is reporting that HS2 WILL go to the ball Euston

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2- ... -0hwxnk5w9
Cool. I hear “f.ck the north” is a guaranteed election winner.

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:38 pm

Tbh it's good news for the North. HS2 literally can't run to Manchester without Euston as there isn't the capacity at OOC, because it isn't designed to be a terminus. And the government have until April 2025 to decide to run to Euston, otherwise OOC can't open on time, as the boring machines won't be able to start.

If Euston doesn't happen then phase 2 is dead.
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Re: HS2

Post by Grumble » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:52 pm

I always knew “levelling up” was a b.llsh.t slogan, but at least there were a few projects that could be pointed to. One by one they all are dropping away.
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Gfamily
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Re: HS2

Post by Gfamily » Mon Oct 02, 2023 10:16 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:52 pm
I always knew “levelling up” was a b.llsh.t slogan, but at least there were a few projects that could be pointed to. One by one they all are dropping away.
One instance of funding using 'levelling up' funds that I heard about recently, was the funding given to support the proposed development of a Science Discovery Centre as part of the work of the Sherwood Observatory.
It looks like an excellent project and has received over £3m in funding from the Levelling up fund. It probably helps that the local MP is 30p Lee, the Deputy Chair of the c.nts Party.

What a surprise!
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:15 am

Another point to mention: no money is being "saved" by cancelling Phase 2.

Firstly, the money is capital expenditure. It is treated differently to operational expenditure. Claims that the money will be used to repair potholes (operational expenditure) suggest the Treasury doesn't understand the difference between the two.

Secondly, funding for Phase 2a wouldn't start until after the next election; Phase 2b wouldn't need much funding for a couple of years after that. The money would be released slowly over time, running up to 2038, so it wouldn't all be spent in one year. As capital expenditure, it's borrowed and paid back slowly over time. The money used to build Phase 2b wouldn't need paying off in full until the 2060s, when most of us will be dead.
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Re: HS2

Post by Brightonian » Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:16 pm

HS2 WILL go to Manchester after all*



*On existing tracks. Capacity? We don't need no stinkin' capacity.

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Re: HS2

Post by lpm » Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:25 pm

They will promise it will go on existing tracks.

They will deliver it will go on existing bus replacement service.
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Oct 03, 2023 7:04 pm

Oh right then, well they'll be happy to give more money to network Rail for that then
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Oct 03, 2023 7:05 pm

Lou Haigh tears into it pretty quickly
https://nitter.net/LouHaigh/status/1709 ... 82492196#m
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Re: HS2

Post by jimbob » Wed Oct 04, 2023 6:51 am

Brightonian wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:16 pm
HS2 WILL go to Manchester after all*



*On existing tracks. Capacity? We don't need no stinkin' capacity.
That figures. I was saying on ISF that Sunak must have been wanting some way of saying he's confounding expectations and "delivering".

I wouldn't be surprised if Sunak is playing silly buggers with the HS2 announcement and that he will confirm it is going beyond Manchester, somehow thinking that would be positive news instead of clearly stating it when the question is raised. My reasoning? Because it is far too inept to actually let it dominate the conference otherwise... even for Sunak.
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TimW
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Re: HS2

Post by TimW » Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:28 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2023 7:04 pm
Oh right then, well they'll be happy to give more money to network Rail for that then
Isn't this what was always going to happen in Phase 1? I must be missing something.

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TimW
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Re: HS2

Post by TimW » Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:49 am

Too late to ETA:
https://www.hs2.org.uk/the-route/high-s ... twork-map/ shows links to t'North and says
The new high-speed railway line will be constructed from London to the West Midlands, where it will re-join the existing West Coast Mainline, whilst serving four brand new stations: London Euston, Old Oak Common, Interchange and Birmingham Curzon Street.

Services will then travel onwards to places like Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Preston and Wigan.
Is something different happening?

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Re: HS2

Post by Grumble » Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:06 am

TimW wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:49 am
Too late to ETA:
https://www.hs2.org.uk/the-route/high-s ... twork-map/ shows links to t'North and says
The new high-speed railway line will be constructed from London to the West Midlands, where it will re-join the existing West Coast Mainline, whilst serving four brand new stations: London Euston, Old Oak Common, Interchange and Birmingham Curzon Street.

Services will then travel onwards to places like Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Preston and Wigan.
Is something different happening?
Is London Euston brand new then?
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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:12 am

Yes, if you read a bit more you'll see the bits that refer to the rest of the line.

The current train service specification for HS2 assumed that after phase 1 opened, the service would be 3 trains per hour from OOC to Birmingham Curzon St only - no trains beyond there, and captive services only.

The TSS for services to Manchester etc only became active upon delivery of Phase 2a, which is now being cancelled. Handsacre Jn was only intended for use for 1 train per hour to Macclesfield, the rest of the trains were due to go via Crewe, which is being canned. 6tph from London to Mancs via Handsacre uses much more of the conventional network than has been planned for and will increase maintenance costs and exacerbate capacity and reliability issues.
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TimW
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Re: HS2

Post by TimW » Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:57 am

So for Phase 1 it shouldn't even say
Services will then travel onwards to places like Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Preston and Wigan Macclesfield.
Great!

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TimW
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Re: HS2

Post by TimW » Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:05 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:06 am
Is London Euston brand new then?
The HS2 bit will be.
https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/up ... 0x1180.png

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lpm
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Re: HS2

Post by lpm » Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:10 pm

How much was wasted by halting the Euston bit, then restarting it now?
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Oct 04, 2023 1:21 pm

An internal estimate was around £400m, and that's a 3.5 year delay, not a 2 year delay, because it'll take an extra 1.5 years to remobilise afterwards
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Re: HS2

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:27 pm

I don't really have words to shape around the cold, mute fury that I'm feeling right now.
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monkey
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Re: HS2

Post by monkey » Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:30 pm

Has land been bought for phase 2 yet? If so will it be sold off and would that essentially prevent a Labour government from resurrecting the plan, cos compulsory purchasing is expensive?

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