Scrutable

You could have a neck of state I suppose, with a couple of shoulders of state to help out.

Ok for the scarf of state maybe but where would you put the hat of state?

nezumi wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Actually, why do we need a head of state anyway?

Is this the point where we reproduce the script of the anarcho-collectivist peasant explaining the principles of governance to King Arthur?

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:26 pm

If we get rid of the Royal Family we need a Head of State - Nigel Farage doesn't appear too busy nowadays; he would have a good chance if we did it by election.

That was exactly my thinking. Happy with HM for that very reason

I've not really got a problem with the Queen as head of state, but do we really have to pay that much for her and all her f.cking half-breed kids? She gets free houses (pretty good ones at that) and probably free snap - does she really need a few million a year from us serfs to get by? And don't give me that old bollocks about bringing in tourists.

Grrr

veravista wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:42 pm

I've not really got a problem with the Queen as head of state, but do we really have to pay that much for her and all her f.cking half-breed kids? She gets free houses (pretty good ones at that) and probably free snap - does she really need a few million a year from us serfs to get by? And don't give me that old bollocks about bringing in tourists.

Grrr

Half-breed? f.cking hell vv.

Well, just look at them

I presume you mean "in-bred" and not something racist and/or from Harry Potter.

I first read it as "half-wit", which I could get behind.

They aren't particularly in-bred.

Philip and Liz are related through Christian IX of Denmark. Liz is his great-great-granddaughter, Philip his great-grandson, which is second cousins once removed.

They are also related via Victoria, being both great-great-grandchildren, which is third cousins.

I think that is fairly normal for Homo sapiens before the modern era of very high population and mixing.

Lack of DNA diversity is not the reason for the vile nature of this family. It's definitely a nurture not a nature kind of thing.

I knew someone that worked at Buckingham Palace at the time of Diana’s death, and they hated all the flowers. Tonnes of the things that were rotting in the hot summer sun. They had to do sneaky things to remove them all at night so as not to raise the ire of the tabloids for chucking them all.

People don't really leave flowers, they leave cellophane wrapping. They even leave the little sachet of flower food still sellotaped on.

These things always look like a big heap of plastic because that's what it is.

Trinucleus wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:26 pm

If we get rid of the Royal Family we need a Head of State - Nigel Farage doesn't appear too busy nowadays; he would have a good chance if we did it by election.

That was exactly my thinking. Happy with HM for that very reason

Happy to have an unelected head of state because you might not like who gets elected? Interesting.

Farage would not win. None of the Remoaners would vote for him, and he's not universally popular amongst Brexiteers, nor especially useful to them now it's already happened.

But obviously you'd want a sensible voting system so the winning candidate actually wins the popular vote, like the runoff systems most countries use, and not a stupid regionally-weighted FPTP system like the UK uses for parliament and the US for its president.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 pm

Trinucleus wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:26 pm

If we get rid of the Royal Family we need a Head of State - Nigel Farage doesn't appear too busy nowadays; he would have a good chance if we did it by election.

That was exactly my thinking. Happy with HM for that very reason

Happy to have an unelected head of state because you might not like who gets elected? Interesting.

Farage would not win. None of the Remoaners would vote for him, and he's not universally popular amongst Brexiteers, nor especially useful to them now it's already happened.

But obviously you'd want a sensible voting system so the winning candidate actually wins the popular vote, like the runoff systems most countries use, and not a stupid regionally-weighted FPTP system like the UK uses for parliament and the US for its president.

Just do it by lottery. Then you wouldn't have a bunch of stupid campaigning.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 pm

Trinucleus wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:26 pm

If we get rid of the Royal Family we need a Head of State - Nigel Farage doesn't appear too busy nowadays; he would have a good chance if we did it by election.

That was exactly my thinking. Happy with HM for that very reason

Happy to have an unelected head of state because you might not like who gets elected? Interesting.

Farage would not win. None of the Remoaners would vote for him, and he's not universally popular amongst Brexiteers, nor especially useful to them now it's already happened.

But obviously you'd want a sensible voting system so the winning candidate actually wins the popular vote, like the runoff systems most countries use, and not a stupid regionally-weighted FPTP system like the UK uses for parliament and the US for its president.

A problem is that we have a seriously f.cked up and poisonous media.

Yeah, maybe we'd end up with 'the peoples favourite' ^tm again. Like Kevin Keegan managing the England team...

We’d end up with Zaphod Beeblebrox. Oh wait, we already have him as PM.

have we had the recent stories about their interference with lots of laws, directly opposed to the “strictly neutral” bollocks we’ve always been fed?

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 pm

Trinucleus wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:26 pm

If we get rid of the Royal Family we need a Head of State - Nigel Farage doesn't appear too busy nowadays; he would have a good chance if we did it by election.

That was exactly my thinking. Happy with HM for that very reason

Happy to have an unelected head of state because you might not like who gets elected? Interesting.

Farage would not win. None of the Remoaners would vote for him, and he's not universally popular amongst Brexiteers, nor especially useful to them now it's already happened.

But obviously you'd want a sensible voting system so the winning candidate actually wins the popular vote, like the runoff systems most countries use, and not a stupid regionally-weighted FPTP system like the UK uses for parliament and the US for its president.

Bearing mind we have a Prime Minister who has been sacked twice for lying and was the worst Foreign Secretary ever, I wouldn't rule anything out.

On Diana - I was with a bunch of mates celebrating a friend's birthday, we got back in from town very pissed about the same time news came through from Paris. Moments later, that was all that was on TV... somewhat brought the night to a halt.

On the monarchy in general, I'd really want to see a robust decent alternative before doing away with. I know that's asking a lot, but with the USA's recent demonstration, the way things are currently going in the UK (generally as well as specifics like Brexit) and just general party politics in the UK too, I don't trust that we wouldn't end up with a system where we'd end up speeding yet faster down the plughole.

In the main, I'd probably prefer a parliamentary republic (German style) as opposed to a presidential (USA style).

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:46 pm

On Diana - I was with a bunch of mates celebrating a friend's birthday, we got back in from town very pissed about the same time news came through from Paris. Moments later, that was all that was on TV... somewhat brought the night to a halt.

On the monarchy in general, I'd really want to see a robust decent alternative before doing away with. I know that's asking a lot, but with the USA's recent demonstration, the way things are currently going in the UK (generally as well as specifics like Brexit) and just general party politics in the UK too, I don't trust that we wouldn't end up with a system where we'd end up speeding yet faster down the plughole.

In the main, I'd probably prefer a parliamentary republic (German style) as opposed to a presidential (USA style).

My view is a written constitution is required, whether we keep the Royal family or not.

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:00 pm

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:46 pm

On Diana - I was with a bunch of mates celebrating a friend's birthday, we got back in from town very pissed about the same time news came through from Paris. Moments later, that was all that was on TV... somewhat brought the night to a halt.

On the monarchy in general, I'd really want to see a robust decent alternative before doing away with. I know that's asking a lot, but with the USA's recent demonstration, the way things are currently going in the UK (generally as well as specifics like Brexit) and just general party politics in the UK too, I don't trust that we wouldn't end up with a system where we'd end up speeding yet faster down the plughole.

In the main, I'd probably prefer a parliamentary republic (German style) as opposed to a presidential (USA style).

My view is a written constitution is required, whether we keep the Royal family or not.

I suspect that is a common opinion in these halls. It would be hugely beneficial to have our rights and responsibilites in a non-alterable form so we could at least rest assured that certain things are sacred and inalienable.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:59 pm

Trinucleus wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm

Blackcountryboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:26 pm

If we get rid of the Royal Family we need a Head of State - Nigel Farage doesn't appear too busy nowadays; he would have a good chance if we did it by election.

That was exactly my thinking. Happy with HM for that very reason

Happy to have an unelected head of state because you might not like who gets elected? Interesting.

Farage would not win. None of the Remoaners would vote for him, and he's not universally popular amongst Brexiteers, nor especially useful to them now it's already happened.

But obviously you'd want a sensible voting system so the winning candidate actually wins the popular vote, like the runoff systems most countries use, and not a stupid regionally-weighted FPTP system like the UK uses for parliament and the US for its president.

It's a reasonably common opinion, I presume, at least amongst those who have given it the slightest thought. Probably most people haven't. That said, over two thirds of people in the UK are monarchists, just over a fifth are republicans and the rest don't know. If there were a vote on the matter, the monarchy would win hands down, even with a clever runoff system like what other countries use.

Other European monarchies seem more in the balance. In Spain, there seems to be a lack of decisiveness on the part of polls, but support for both republicanism and the monarchy are each somewhere between 31% and 56%. In the Netherlands, support is somewhat similar to the UK (68% support, 15% against). It's hard to find figures for Belgium, but the dregs that are out there suggest similar support to the Netherlands. Norway's king is very popular (more than our queen), Denmark similar, Sweden so-so (but may get better once the current bloke carks it).

Just under a fifth of Europeans live in a monarchy, and almost all the rest in a republic (thanks to Andorra, 0.01% live in a diarchy), so it's a fairly common form of government.

I think it's an interesting exercise for to also look at whether there's any support in those countries who have a history of monarchy to return to that form of government. Certainly it's hard to imagine ever happening (though obviously it did in Spain), but according to this, 17% of French people would be open to a restoration of the monarcy there, 15.6% of Portuguese, and around 30-45% of Romanians*. The numbers here are broadly similar to those in favour of republics in monarchical countries.

It looks like major constitutional change in terms of the form of government is fairly unpopular whichever side of the fence countries are on, at least with the information I can find. Obviously that doesn't really negate any argument either way, but something to keep in mind. In particular, Scandinavian countries tend to be lauded in general here for their politics and governmental approach, and yet all three countries there are monarchies.



*Apologies for some of the links here, this stuff isn't especially well covered.

I wonder if there's a comparison of pay. I'd assume Elizabeth Windsor is the highest paid constitutional monarch in Europe. Possibly she has 10x the wealth of those in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Belgium and Netherlands. The ex Spanish king raked in a lot from Saudi bribes though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... _net_worth
Outside Europe the people who seized oil and self-declared themselves monarchs are all top.

In Europe Wikipedia has Liechtenstein bloke top, Luxembourg second.

Spain 3rd, Monaco 4th.

Elizabeth Windsor is only 5th, Charles Windsor 6th (if combined they'd beat Monaco).

The wealth tax should sort this out. Leave the constitutional monarch with nothing, but pay them a fair whack for their charity, ambassadorial and government work.

ETA:

Top charity CEO gets £240k a year
Top ambassador gets £185k a year
Prime Minister gets £160k a year

Assuming a third of time on each, that averages to about £200k a year. Seems a reasonable salary for a head of state and will leave Elizabeth Windsor in the best paid 0.5% in the country. Chuck in part time use of Chequers, shared with the PM. Chuck in a good travel allowance and maybe even a wardrobe allowance for her fancy dress. Chuck in free banquets whenever another head of state is in town.

I'd take the job for that. It is discriminatory against me that I am denied the chance to apply for this job merely on the basis of my birth circumstances.