Scrutable

shpalman wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:03 am

Trousers will become personal choice says whoever the hell this guy is.

I mean, I've gotten used to being at home and not having to wear trousers, it's annoying that I have to wear them to go out or go to work.

I'm extra cautious, so I wear double underpants when I go out as a precaution against forgetting to put any trousers on.

Has anywhere else relaxed mask restrictions as a result of rising vaccination numbers but despite rising number of cases of a variant that can be spread by the vaccinated?

It seems sufficiently moronic to be a UK special.

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Has anywhere else relaxed mask restrictions as a result of rising vaccination numbers but despite rising number of cases of a variant that can be spread by the vaccinated?

It seems sufficiently moronic to be a UK special.

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

Like I said, in Italy you don't have to wear a mask outside as long as you aren't near other people. But since you still need it in shops or when it's more crowded it feels easier to just leave the damn thing on. I actually feel a bit uncomfortable not wearing it, I mean, nobody can tell that I've been double-vaccinated, so it's rude not to.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

But wearing a mask for a walk on the beach in the sun seems spectacularly pointless.

I’m all for caution and mask in crowded and indoor spaces, but wearing them when they’re completely unnecessary seems to be taking things too far.

headshot wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:57 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

But wearing a mask for a walk on the beach in the sun seems spectacularly pointless.

I’m all for caution and mask in crowded and indoor spaces, but wearing them when they’re completely unnecessary seems to be taking things too far.

It is unnecessary, and voluntary.

Like shpalman though I do keep mine with me always. I wear it on my chin at least, because it does get very hot and I walk fast. But if I'm passing a crowd (say a bus stop, or a queue for a shop) I put it on properly. People using them if stopping to chat, for example, and the Portuguese do pop into a cafe every few hundred paces.

On and off seems more hassle, and it's easier to be in good habits than having to decide all the time.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:02 am

headshot wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:57 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

But wearing a mask for a walk on the beach in the sun seems spectacularly pointless.

I’m all for caution and mask in crowded and indoor spaces, but wearing them when they’re completely unnecessary seems to be taking things too far.

It is unnecessary, and voluntary.

Like shpalman though I do keep mine with me always. I wear it on my chin at least, because it does get very hot and I walk fast. But if I'm passing a crowd (say a bus stop, or a queue for a shop) I put it on properly. People using them if stopping to chat, for example, and the Portuguese do pop into a cafe every few hundred paces.

On and off seems more hassle, and it's easier to be in good habits than having to decide all the time.

I favour dangling from one ear rather than under the chin for the between-times. It stretches the elastic less.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Has anywhere else relaxed mask restrictions as a result of rising vaccination numbers but despite rising number of cases of a variant that can be spread by the vaccinated?

It seems sufficiently moronic to be a UK special.

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

Last week the Netherlands has relaxed the mask restrictions everywhere except public transport, and educational institutions for ages 12 and up, the idea being that keeping distance is sufficient and masks are only necessary in places where distance cannot be maintained.

Deaths, hospitalisations, and cases are down (see https://www.rivm.nl/coronavirus-covid-19/grafieken for the government's stats) and vaccination numbers are getting there (https://www.rivm.nl/covid-19-vaccinatie ... eprogramma). Unfortunately the proportion of delta is rising fast - last I heard is that it is about 50% of new cases - so I am a little worried things will take a turn.

headshot wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:57 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

But wearing a mask for a walk on the beach in the sun seems spectacularly pointless.

I’m all for caution and mask in crowded and indoor spaces, but wearing them when they’re completely unnecessary seems to be taking things too far.

Yup. Outside, especially when I am on a hill literally hundreds of metres from anyone else, no.

Normal low-densityshopping, a triple layer mask with a nonwoven layer

I have been using FFP3 masks when I'm going somewhere particular crowded, and have been since February

jaap wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:46 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Has anywhere else relaxed mask restrictions as a result of rising vaccination numbers but despite rising number of cases of a variant that can be spread by the vaccinated?

It seems sufficiently moronic to be a UK special.

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

Last week the Netherlands has relaxed the mask restrictions everywhere except public transport, and educational institutions for ages 12 and up, the idea being that keeping distance is sufficient and masks are only necessary in places where distance cannot be maintained.

Deaths, hospitalisations, and cases are down (see https://www.rivm.nl/coronavirus-covid-19/grafieken for the government's stats) and vaccination numbers are getting there (https://www.rivm.nl/covid-19-vaccinatie ... eprogramma). Unfortunately the proportion of delta is rising fast - last I heard is that it is about 50% of new cases - so I am a little worried things will take a turn.

We’ve gone for the opposite approach and relaxed it in schools first. Seems to have been going well so far. For the virus, anyway.

If masks become 'a personal choice' it will be easy to spot people who are a) considerate b) well informed c) scared.

Jenrick said:

he trusted people "to exercise good judgement ... But we now have to move into a different period where we learn to live with the virus, we take precautions and we as individuals take personal responsibility

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57710527

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:21 pm

If masks become 'a personal choice' it will be easy to spot people who are a) considerate b) well informed c) scared.

Jenrick said:

he trusted people "to exercise good judgement ... But we now have to move into a different period where we learn to live with the virus, we take precautions and we as individuals take personal responsibility

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57710527

People will not exercise good judgement.

People who generally exercise good judgement will exercise good judgement.

People who often don't exercise good judgement will not exercise good judgement.

You are kind of right that it's the cautious who survive. There will be a vast difference in death rates between the vaccinated majority and the small number of vaccine refusers. A modest amount of caution by us vaccinated people - masks, not cramming into a tube, avoiding a noisy indoor nightclub - is more than sufficient to protect ourselves. The same level of caution for the unvaccinated is nothing like enough.

You seem to have trapped yourself in a cycle of over caution. Trust your vaccine doses. Add a sprinkling of near free protection from masks and avoiding crowds. But don't impose larger costs on yourself and your lifestyle. Mate, go out and about, enjoy yourself, be part of the world again.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:45 am

Old folks are all double jabbed by now here, and you still see them wearing masks even for a walk on the beach in the sun. I've yet to see a single person seriously complain.

What has complaining got to do with it? It's easy to find people frivolously complaining about nothing, and also to find situations where people fail to complain when they have very good grounds for complaint. The big failures of handling the pandemic have been caused by caring about what people think rather than just looking at reality.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:59 pm

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:48 am

shpalman wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:08 am

The British Medical Association (BMA) said that keeping some protective measures in place was “crucial” to stop spiralling cases numbers having a “devastating impact” on people’s health, the NHS, the economy and education.

I was talking with a friend a few days ago and we said that we'd carry on wearing a mask on public transport and in shops even though we've both been double-vaxxed, based on our own research, so it's interesting to hear the BMA say the same thing.

I dont even pay attention to the recommendations anymore. I double mask everywhere, shop at non peak hours, avoid the tube, crowds, pubs.
I have read a lot of memoirs of people who have survived the War, holocaust, killing fields etc. It is the cautious who survive.

How do *you* double-mask?
Are you actually putting on two face-masks?

lpm wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:14 pm

People who generally exercise good judgement will exercise good judgement.

People who often don't exercise good judgement will not exercise good judgement.

You are kind of right that it's the cautious who survive. There will be a vast difference in death rates between the vaccinated majority and the small number of vaccine refusers. A modest amount of caution by us vaccinated people - masks, not cramming into a tube, avoiding a noisy indoor nightclub - is more than sufficient to protect ourselves. The same level of caution for the unvaccinated is nothing like enough.

You seem to have trapped yourself in a cycle of over caution. Trust your vaccine doses. Add a sprinkling of near free protection from masks and avoiding crowds. But don't impose larger costs on yourself and your lifestyle. Mate, go out and about, enjoy yourself, be part of the world again.

You really haven't thought this through at all - you're sounding like a tory minister.
The problem is that the people who don't exercise good judgement harm others. Someone who doesn't wear a mask on train, for example, is the sort of person likely to take other risks & is thus more likely to catch COVID & thus they can harm maybe hundreds of other people on their way in to work. Me wearing a mask will do nothing for that as it won't protect me.
And many people don't have a choice but to take the tube. Workplaces will reopen & the poorest will be forced back into the office every day. They are the ones who live furthest away from the office, have the least time flexibility & are least likely to own a car and thus are most reliant on public transport. All the cafe workers & cleaners will be massively put at risk & not everyone can ride to work.
Retaining a requirement to wear masks on public transport is the least that should be done.

You seem to forget that every adult in the UK has been vaccinated, or has an appointment for a vaccine this week, or has not yet responded to offers of a vaccine, or has refused a vaccination.

There's no point in regurgitating sentences that would have been all valid points in April 2020 and thinking they are valid points in July 2021.

Do we have enough data on the risks to vaccinated people from Delta? I thought it was still looking iffy.

Oh yeah and young people

Oh and people who legitimately couldn't be vaccinated for whatever reason

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:59 am

Do we have enough data on the risks to vaccinated people from Delta? I thought it was still looking iffy.

Overall, the AZ vaccine is about 93% effective against a Delta infection that would require a hospital admission, only about 70% for mild infections. (That's compared to the unvaccinated population).

We don't really know the effects of vaccines on long covid, which can happen after a mild infection.

That's pretty good news deaths-wise. And IIRC there's some evidence vaccines themselves can reduce symptoms of long covid (assuming long delta is broadly similar).

Suggests the main risks of reopening might be long-term illness in the poor and young, rather than hospitals and death for traditional Tory-voting groups.

I suppose immunocompromised people can just keep up isolation forever?

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:46 am

You seem to forget that every adult in the UK has been vaccinated, or has an appointment for a vaccine this week, or has not yet responded to offers of a vaccine, or has refused a vaccination.

You are using a very relaxed definition of effectively vaccinated.

As of now only 63.8% of the adult population have been fully vaccinated (i.e. had 2 doses).

Single dose efficacy against the Delta variant is not good - PHE figures put this around 30-40%.

Double post

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:21 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:46 am

You seem to forget that every adult in the UK has been vaccinated, or has an appointment for a vaccine this week, or has not yet responded to offers of a vaccine, or has refused a vaccination.

You are using a very relaxed definition of effectively vaccinated.

As of now only 63.8% of the adult population have been fully vaccinated (i.e. had 2 doses).

Single dose efficacy against the Delta variant is not good - PHE figures put this around 30-40%.

There's a lot of regional variation in vaccine rates. Where I live, only 36% have had both and 57% have had one. It's slightly lower than that in surrounding areas.

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:21 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:46 am

You seem to forget that every adult in the UK has been vaccinated, or has an appointment for a vaccine this week, or has not yet responded to offers of a vaccine, or has refused a vaccination.

You are using a very relaxed definition of effectively vaccinated.

As of now only 63.8% of the adult population have been fully vaccinated (i.e. had 2 doses).

Single dose efficacy against the Delta variant is not good - PHE figures put this around 30-40%.

That 63.8% double-dosed are people in Cohorts 1-9, over 50s. These cohorts make up 99% of 2020 Covid fatalities.

A single dose is fine for young people. The age differential for Covid fatalities is too extraordinary for humans to easily comprehend. The elderly are thousands of times more likely to die. It's more dangerous to be a fully vaccinated 85 year old than an unvaccinated 21 year old.