Scrutable

MartinDurkin wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:10 pm

Aren't they different gauges on either end?

Good point. Ireland (the whole island) uses 1600mm, while England, Scotland, and Wales use 1435mm (also used by France, and lots of other countries all around the world).

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:07 am

It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.

Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.

These big projects have to start somewhere. No idea how feasible it is but someone ought to be at least thinking about it.

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:25 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:07 am

It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.

Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.

These big projects have to start somewhere. No idea how feasible it is but someone ought to be at least thinking about it.

Of course. Its just that Johnson has a history of talking about exciting projects that never happen. Perhaps one day someone could land at the international airport on Boris Island, then go on a tour of Britain which involved crossing the verdant Garden Bridge over the Thames, visiting the rebuilt Crystal Palace and going under the Irish Sea via the tunnel. Though it never being built may be a better fate than the cable care from Greenwich over the Thames. Which was built but had no regular users.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:07 am

It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.

Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.

Johnson's plan (as much as he can be said to have one) is to get people talking about that rather than things which actually are happening.
Every one of you are wasting precious seconds of your life discussing how to get the angels onto the head of the pin so hat they can dance a merry brexit jig.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:46 am

Though it never being built may be a better fate than the cable care from Greenwich over the Thames. Which was built but had no regular users.

You mean this one: Secrets of the Cable Car

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:22 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:07 am

It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.

Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.

Johnson's plan (as much as he can be said to have one) is to get people talking about that rather than things which actually are happening.
Every one of you are wasting precious seconds of your life discussing how to get the angels onto the head of the pin so hat they can dance a merry brexit jig.

not entirely sure about that. there's a lot of infrastructure money about at the moment which will help drag us into the 21st C

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:36 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:22 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:07 am

It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.

Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.

Johnson's plan (as much as he can be said to have one) is to get people talking about that rather than things which actually are happening.
Every one of you are wasting precious seconds of your life discussing how to get the angels onto the head of the pin so hat they can dance a merry brexit jig.

not entirely sure about that. there's a lot of infrastructure money about at the moment which will help drag us into the 21st C go into his friends pockets.

FTFY

plodder wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:36 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:22 am

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:07 am

It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.

Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.

Johnson's plan (as much as he can be said to have one) is to get people talking about that rather than things which actually are happening.
Every one of you are wasting precious seconds of your life discussing how to get the angels onto the head of the pin so hat they can dance a merry brexit jig.

not entirely sure about that. there's a lot of infrastructure money about at the moment which will help drag us into the 21st C

Before I posted, I initially wrote "idiots" rather than "people".
I thought to myself, 'now that's a bit harsh on chops'.
And it would have been harsh on him

Not really. Chops mentioned a silly johnson idea, acknowledging he has form, loads of people pile on saying what an impossible idea it is to build a tunnel under the sea, I point out it's probably feasible and someone ought to look at it regardless of who's in charge, you tear off your shirt and beat your chest loudly proclaiming that johnson johnson johnson anyone who talks about johnson johnson johnson complete idiots etc did I mention johnson.

There is lots of infrastructure money floating about at the moment and it's not going to johnson's "mates". some of it's paying my mortgage, for example.

plodder revealed as one of Johnson's mates

Infrastructure money isn't going to build a space elevator from Wolverhampton to Jupiter. If something is impossible with current technology, it's impossible.

Wait till autonomous tunnelling machines can be set running deep below the surface.

This particular idea does sound a bit odd from what I can find in the press, eg https://www.irishpost.com/news/boris-jo ... -uk-204343

There are places with three-way tunnels like that, eg in the Faeroes, but I don't think they had to cross a huge crevasse full of bombs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eysturoyartunnilin

Equally there are bridges and tunnels and things linking Denmark to Sweden without it doing much to promote a unified national identity.

Has anyone seen a proposal that makes it sound not-stupid?

Some more analysis here https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/02/19/bo ... -than-one/

It's longer and deeper than the channel tunnel, by way of comparison. With a bunch of bombs in the middle.

Also some issues connecting up the train networks, apparently.

But I guess the proposed feasibility study will look into all that stuff.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:06 pm

Also some issues connecting up the train networks, apparently.

The particular issue (per EPD) is that the rails are different widths apart in Ireland (5' 3") and Scotland (4' 8.5"), so you need to completely rebuild the rails for the entire rail system you want to connect to the tunnel on one side or the other. And all the track clearances. And replace all the rolling stock.

(ETA: practically that probably means doing all the work on the Irish side, as I'd guess that the tracks clearances are likely to be larger on the side with the wider gauge)

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:06 pm

Also some issues connecting up the train networks, apparently.

The particular issue (per EPD) is that the rails are different widths apart in Ireland (5' 3") and Scotland (4' 8.5"), so you need to completely rebuild the rails for the entire rail system you want to connect to the tunnel on one side or the other. And all the track clearances. And replace all the rolling stock.

(ETA: practically that probably means doing all the work on the Irish side, as I'd guess that the tracks clearances are likely to be larger on the side with the wider gauge)

Well, either that or you just run the trains into a terminal at Belfast where everyone has to change. You can't take a Eurostar beyond London either.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:57 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:06 pm

Also some issues connecting up the train networks, apparently.

The particular issue (per EPD) is that the rails are different widths apart in Ireland (5' 3") and Scotland (4' 8.5"), so you need to completely rebuild the rails for the entire rail system you want to connect to the tunnel on one side or the other. And all the track clearances. And replace all the rolling stock.

(ETA: practically that probably means doing all the work on the Irish side, as I'd guess that the tracks clearances are likely to be larger on the side with the wider gauge)

Well, either that or you just run the trains into a terminal at Belfast where everyone has to change. You can't take a Eurostar beyond London either.

Is carrying people the main point of this tunnel? Or carrying goods?

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:12 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:57 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 pm

The particular issue (per EPD) is that the rails are different widths apart in Ireland (5' 3") and Scotland (4' 8.5"), so you need to completely rebuild the rails for the entire rail system you want to connect to the tunnel on one side or the other. And all the track clearances. And replace all the rolling stock.

(ETA: practically that probably means doing all the work on the Irish side, as I'd guess that the tracks clearances are likely to be larger on the side with the wider gauge)

Well, either that or you just run the trains into a terminal at Belfast where everyone has to change. You can't take a Eurostar beyond London either.

Is carrying people the main point of this tunnel? Or carrying goods?

Adding for both options: You can't get the Euro Tunnel past Folkstone.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:12 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:57 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 pm

The particular issue (per EPD) is that the rails are different widths apart in Ireland (5' 3") and Scotland (4' 8.5"), so you need to completely rebuild the rails for the entire rail system you want to connect to the tunnel on one side or the other. And all the track clearances. And replace all the rolling stock.

(ETA: practically that probably means doing all the work on the Irish side, as I'd guess that the tracks clearances are likely to be larger on the side with the wider gauge)

Well, either that or you just run the trains into a terminal at Belfast where everyone has to change. You can't take a Eurostar beyond London either.

Is carrying people the main point of this tunnel? Or carrying goods?

No idea. But generally speaking if it's intended to be a PR move to emphasise the connectedness of the United Kingdom I'd expect they're hoping for a lot of passengers. Nobody's that excited by how freight moves around, as long as it does so unimpeded by border checkpoints, customs and paperwork.

Hmm, so a 300 mile train journey from here, East Mids to Belfast? 5 or so hours? 1h 10 by plane and £60..

Lets face it, it's a crackpot idea. It's possible, of course it is, nobody could rule out the ingenuity of the human. It's twice as deep and twice as long as the channel tunnel, through much harder rock with little or no infrastructure existing at both ends and to what end? As things stand it would still need customs checks either end.

Just so the ERG and blukip loons can say they're doing something about the entirely avoidable catastrofuck they're got us into.

Not to suggest that the tunnel plan makes any kind of sense whatever, but dual variable gauge rolling stock is completely a thing - jfgi. The Spanish definitely use it and IIRC the Russians too, among others.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:48 pm

plodder revealed as one of Johnson's mates

yes, either that or tom is a moron.

nekomatic wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:07 pm

Not to suggest that the tunnel plan makes any kind of sense whatever, but dual variable gauge rolling stock is completely a thing - jfgi. The Spanish definitely use it and IIRC the Russians too, among others.

I know it exists. But gauge is only one element of compatibility between systems, and all the rolling stock that you want to transfer between systems has to be of that type, which brings us back to what I was saying about having to make a large investment in rolling stock.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:46 pm

nekomatic wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:07 pm

Not to suggest that the tunnel plan makes any kind of sense whatever, but dual variable gauge rolling stock is completely a thing - jfgi. The Spanish definitely use it and IIRC the Russians too, among others.

I know it exists. But gauge is only one element of compatibility between systems, and all the rolling stock that you want to transfer between systems has to be of that type, which brings us back to what I was saying about having to make a large investment in rolling stock.

Isn't that what BRexit was all about?

We could always invest in high speed ferries, research environmentally friendly power systems, better port infrastructure closer to existing, useful transport points. But no, it's got to be a f.cking pie in the sky tunnel that will cost billions and never, ever be built in my daughters lifetime.

veravista wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:18 am

We could always invest in high speed ferries, research environmentally friendly power systems, better port infrastructure closer to existing, useful transport points. But no, it's got to be a f.cking pie in the sky tunnel that will cost billions and never, ever be built in my daughters lifetime.

Ya, but its fun to talk about.