Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
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Tessa K
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Tessa K » Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:46 pm

I enoy kicking balls too. Oh right, that sort of ball...

I went to the same girls school as Fishnut but a while before. There were no hands-on subjects apart from pottery then but we were encouraged to be very sporty. Forcing kids to be sporty sounds pretty brutal though.

I'm wondering what kind of parent that school attracts. Surely anyone with sons and daughters would be able to see what tripe that is.

The strapline should be 'Hate Women? Fear they may show you up for your barely average competence? Send us your sons so we can indoctrinate them with a sense of unearned privilege and over-confidence before it's too late'.

And yes, very heteronormative. And white, from the picture.

There's an article here on the benefits of co-ed versus boys only

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... c-outcomes

Also this
A recent study by the academic journal ‘Sex Roles’ suggested that when you factored in prior attainment, the differences in boys’ and girl’s academic outcomes between single sex and mixed sex classrooms goes away. This draws on the theory that higher performing children are more likely to go to those schools, and therefore skew the data.
https://gabbitas.com/single-sex-versus- ... is-better/

This is interesting on the myth of single-sex schools improving performance:
There is no well-designed research showing that single-sex (SS) education improves students' academic performance, but there is evidence that sex segregation increases gender stereotyping and legitimizes institutional sexism.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/333/6050/1706

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Opti
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Opti » Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:59 pm

Don't get me started on ... forcing kids to be sporty.

Fortunately I enjoyed, and wasn't a clumsy oaf at sport. But the shaming culture at my school was appalling towards those who obviously had no interest in or ability at, sport.
It was a very cruel and humiliating culture. Lots of boys were regularly reduced to tears. Just to add to the humiliation in a teenage environment in the 60's. It was f.cking brutal.
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malbui
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by malbui » Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:31 pm

Opti wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:59 pm
Don't get me started on ... forcing kids to be sporty.

Fortunately I enjoyed, and wasn't a clumsy oaf at sport. But the shaming culture at my school was appalling towards those who obviously had no interest in or ability at, sport.
It was a very cruel and humiliating culture. Lots of boys were regularly reduced to tears. Just to add to the humiliation in a teenage environment in the 60's. It was f.cking brutal.
Have I ever mentioned on here how I ended up playing rugby?

When I changed school at age 13 to go to the local grammar school, rugby trials were compulsory. During our game I received the ball under my own posts, and being tall, skinny and weedy I was utterly sh.t-scared. This must have help shave six or seven seconds off my 100m time because I ended up running the whole length of the pitch to score. This left me condemned to playing 14 or 15 in spite of my protestations.

It wasn't until about four years later when I'd grown to 6'2" and nearly 15 stone that I began to enjoy it.
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Grumble
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Grumble » Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:29 pm

When my mum was about 5 or 6 her eldest brother died in a road accident. Her father spent a lot of time not crying, as in forcing himself not to show the emotion. Let’s not pretend that when men were men they were happy about it.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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jimbob
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by jimbob » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:23 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:41 pm
Boustrophedon wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:22 pm
Every time I mention the fact that I am a Woodwork/metalwork/tech teacher in mixed company the ladies always complain that they were not allowed to do those things and were forced to do cookery/ sewing etc.
We had one term of textiles (sewing), one term of HE (cooking) and one term of DT (woodworking). My favourite was the woodworking and I was the only one of my friends who was comfortable with the jigsaw so I got to cut all their stuff out as well as my own :D
Boustrophedon wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:22 pm
It's f.cking cultural folks.
So much this.
Dad's just found his mother's Girl Guide badge book (from 1925)

this is the first of 10 pages for the Carpenter's Badge

Image


So even then, amongst the supposedly girly stuff, they recognised the other things - there was also "Air Mechanic's" badge, which isn't immediately what one thinks of as 1920's Girl guides.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Martin Y
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Martin Y » Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:57 am

jimbob wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:23 pm
Dad's just found his mother's Girl Guide badge book (from 1925)

this is the first of 10 pages for the Carpenter's Badge

Image


So even then, amongst the supposedly girly stuff, they recognised the other things - there was also "Air Mechanic's" badge, which isn't immediately what one thinks of as 1920's Girl guides.
That's brilliant. They really made 'em earn those badges. Makes me wonder how many weren't able to even try it for want of a competent adult to lead the activities, plus of course tools and materials.

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El Pollo Diablo
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:58 am

Efficient boxes discussion split off from the thread into Relaxation Station here.
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by nezumi » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:40 pm

As on topic as I can manage as tired as I am*, I wish for a future where all children can learn basic tool use at a young enough age that the general ability to learn to manipulate physical tools can become embedded.

Anecdata (I bet there's science supporting this though)

I can't be bothered to find and quote jimbob's comment but how exciting did girl guides look back then? I would definitely have stayed if carpentry was on the agenda; I went to Brownies and the most complicated thing we did was make a cup of tea. My school was an excellent one so we also got to learn a proper instrument and they did lots of workshop sessions on things like sewing etc., sports, science and assorted practical skills I've forgotten over the years. We didn't use proper tools at all though, my brother and I were lucky to be brought up by a Master Mechanic** though so we were both perfectly capable of drilling holes in bits of wood pre-primary.

Here's a hypothesis that could be tested using lots of data: Does introducing young children to a wide variety of both academic and practical skills have an effect on their later 1: reading age scores 2: standardised test results 3: general success in life relative to their demographic (with a whole variety of indicators that could tell us). I bet someone's already answered this somewhere but it's another idea for my project list.

It makes me so happy that schools are teaching coding, and I really hope science education now is as hands-on and fun as my primary science education was but I want to see all schools able to give all children access to as big a variety of skills as is humanly possible and I am already reasonably convinced that a very good business and scientific case could be brought to support it.


* couldn't sleep all night, loud storminess causing assorted bangs and clatters outside, restless cats and my brain decided it was creative time at 2am.

** Capitalized because my dad deserves a proper title, time served mechanic with 45 years of experience and capable of fixing any problem with any motor vehicle ever built, up to including and beyond Articulated Lorries.

Edit to add: I think I'm heading for Big Data Analytics as the specialism for me.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

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Tessa K
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Tessa K » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:59 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:40 pm
Here's a hypothesis that could be tested using lots of data: Does introducing young children to a wide variety of both academic and practical skills have an effect on their later 1: reading age scores 2: standardised test results 3: general success in life relative to their demographic (with a whole variety of indicators that could tell us). I bet someone's already answered this somewhere but it's another idea for my project list.
Practical skills teach problem solving, whether that's making/repairing with fabric, wood, metal or anything else. They teach you to think creatively and give the confidence to tackle new tasks in other areas both practical and mental. You also pick up other basic skills along the way eg maths, reading and communication skills needed to make or fix stuff.

A sewing box is a tool kit.

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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by nezumi » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:15 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:59 pm
nezumi wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:40 pm
Here's a hypothesis that could be tested using lots of data: Does introducing young children to a wide variety of both academic and practical skills have an effect on their later 1: reading age scores 2: standardised test results 3: general success in life relative to their demographic (with a whole variety of indicators that could tell us). I bet someone's already answered this somewhere but it's another idea for my project list.
Practical skills teach problem solving, whether that's making/repairing with fabric, wood, metal or anything else. They teach you to think creatively and give the confidence to tackle new tasks in other areas both practical and mental. You also pick up other basic skills along the way eg maths, reading and communication skills needed to make or fix stuff.

A sewing box is a tool kit.
Exactly and absolutely, which is why the case for funding and finding time for these things for every single child in the UK has to be airtight if it will ever happen. I don't yet have the skills to find out if anyone's done enough research to really analyse the relationship but if they have, when I do have the skills I would love to read it.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

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jimbob
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by jimbob » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:47 pm

nezumi wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:40 pm
As on topic as I can manage as tired as I am*, I wish for a future where all children can learn basic tool use at a young enough age that the general ability to learn to manipulate physical tools can become embedded.

Anecdata (I bet there's science supporting this though)

I can't be bothered to find and quote jimbob's comment but how exciting did girl guides look back then? I would definitely have stayed if carpentry was on the agenda; I went to Brownies and the most complicated thing we did was make a cup of tea. My school was an excellent one so we also got to learn a proper instrument and they did lots of workshop sessions on things like sewing etc., sports, science and assorted practical skills I've forgotten over the years. We didn't use proper tools at all though, my brother and I were lucky to be brought up by a Master Mechanic** though so we were both perfectly capable of drilling holes in bits of wood pre-primary.

Here's a hypothesis that could be tested using lots of data: Does introducing young children to a wide variety of both academic and practical skills have an effect on their later 1: reading age scores 2: standardised test results 3: general success in life relative to their demographic (with a whole variety of indicators that could tell us). I bet someone's already answered this somewhere but it's another idea for my project list.

It makes me so happy that schools are teaching coding, and I really hope science education now is as hands-on and fun as my primary science education was but I want to see all schools able to give all children access to as big a variety of skills as is humanly possible and I am already reasonably convinced that a very good business and scientific case could be brought to support it.


* couldn't sleep all night, loud storminess causing assorted bangs and clatters outside, restless cats and my brain decided it was creative time at 2am.

** Capitalized because my dad deserves a proper title, time served mechanic with 45 years of experience and capable of fixing any problem with any motor vehicle ever built, up to including and beyond Articulated Lorries.

Edit to add: I think I'm heading for Big Data Analytics as the specialism for me.

I think it isn't the national organisation, but the local groups (because the leaders often are a bit more lame - and these days, more adventurous ones often end up in scouts)

My daughter did brownies and guides, but moved onto Explorers, as the senior section was incredibly lame - doing some activities for 15-26 yr olds that she'd consider below brownies* (making wooden spoon people FROM A KIT for example)

She did get to go on their Camp CEO initiative and ended up writing this piece for girlguiding for the Telegraph (register wall)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/ ... at-we-can/


*She helped out during her university, and is currently doing forest-school work at the local primary school.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Boustrophedon
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Boustrophedon » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:17 pm

Why do we teach sport at school?
Why do we teach music?

Neither is statistically likely to lead to a qualification and even less likely to lead to a job, the two measures used to justify the inclusion of any other subject in the curriculum. Surely if they want to learn music the parents can pay for lessons and if they want to play a sport let them join a local club?

So Sport and music? There are ample studies showing the benefit of both to the development of the whole child, including coordination spatial awareness and fitness. (And that's just the music.)

But Woodwork and metalwork and what was called CDT. These have become consumed by Design tech and STEM, where the emphasis is on mental skills, 3D modelling on a PC and Design, the practical aspect is now less than 10% of the GCSE score. Already Ebay is flooded with School woodwork and metalwork tools, with the schools replacing them with 3D printers and CAM.

But mankind is a tool using species, there is even a school of thought that asserts that tool using drove the evolutionary development of the brain and bipedalism: Our hands were just too useful to walk on.
See Professor F.T. Evans: Two Legs, Thing Using and Talking: The Origins of the Creative Engineering Mind
https://www.timhunkin.com/a119_francis_evans.htm

Yet in our schools, use of the hands to do things is discouraged beyond catching a ball, m.st.rbation, and writing/typing. No thought is given to the effect on the developing brain of handling, making, doing. There is a much better maker ethos in America, whilst over here model engineering is the domain of the old. Even model flying is now dominated by the "buy it, fly it mentality."

We need to prioritise the use of the hands, I don't care if it's Lego or K'nex or modelling clay. Isn't it strange how much of that goes on in primary school and so little in secondary, which coincidentally is where a lot of kids switch off.

OK Old man's rant over carry on.
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Tessa K
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Tessa K » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:02 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:17 pm


But mankind is a tool using species, there is even a school of thought that asserts that tool using drove the evolutionary development of the brain and bipedalism: Our hands were just too useful to walk on.
See Professor F.T. Evans: Two Legs, Thing Using and Talking: The Origins of the Creative Engineering Mind
https://www.timhunkin.com/a119_francis_evans.htm
It's likely to be a feedback loop - using tools develops the brain, a more developed brain leads to more complex tools. As for bipedalism - lots of tool-using animals (apes, birds, dolphins etc) use feet/flippers/etc for both locomotion and everything else so I'm not sure about that hypothesis. Its more likely to be multifactorial.

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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Cardinal Fang » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:04 pm

Boustrophedon wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:17 pm
But Woodwork and metalwork and what was called CDT. These have become consumed by Design tech and STEM, where the emphasis is on mental skills, 3D modelling on a PC and Design, the practical aspect is now less than 10% of the GCSE score. Already Ebay is flooded with School woodwork and metalwork tools, with the schools replacing them with 3D printers and CAM.
I started watching Adam Savage's YouTube channel during lockdown, and it appeals to me to be able to build things. However I don't have any access to any workspace, and thanks to the lack of teaching of such things at school even 25 years ago (the boys did it - we had to do Home Ec and textiles), no real skills and no real access to how to learn them. But I'd love to give woodworking, or metalworking or both a go, just to see if I can

CF
Image

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nekomatic
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by nekomatic » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:11 pm

Are you near a Fab Lab or other maker space?

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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Boustrophedon » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:40 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:04 pm
Boustrophedon wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:17 pm
But Woodwork and metalwork and what was called CDT. These have become consumed by Design tech and STEM, where the emphasis is on mental skills, 3D modelling on a PC and Design, the practical aspect is now less than 10% of the GCSE score. Already Ebay is flooded with School woodwork and metalwork tools, with the schools replacing them with 3D printers and CAM.
I started watching Adam Savage's YouTube channel during lockdown, and it appeals to me to be able to build things. However I don't have any access to any workspace, and thanks to the lack of teaching of such things at school even 25 years ago (the boys did it - we had to do Home Ec and textiles), no real skills and no real access to how to learn them. But I'd love to give woodworking, or metalworking or both a go, just to see if I can

CF
Rex Kruger has a series of videos on basic woodworking without many tools. https://www.youtube.com/c/RexKrueger/featured
Xyla makes stuff too. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEn3fR ... Ysijxnzayg
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Cardinal Fang
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Cardinal Fang » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:52 pm

If I ever can afford to move out of my broom cupboard sized bedsit into somewhere that has space to do anything like that I will certainly check him out

CF
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Ijon Tichy
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Ijon Tichy » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:13 pm

I went to a boys-only school. By noon on my first day, our lieutenant had been killed and we were taking heavy mortar fire from the direction of the headmasters' office.

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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by Little waster » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:18 pm

Ijon Tichy wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:13 pm
I went to a boys-only school. By noon on my first day, our lieutenant had been killed and we were taking heavy mortar fire from the direction of the headmasters' office.
I went to a Boys-Own school, I ended my first semester single-handedly holding off a horde of marauding Afghan tribesmen with just a cricket bat and the assistance of my loyal native man-servant.

We then had bangers'n'mash to celebrate. 8-)
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Re: Boys Are Delicate Flowers

Post by JQH » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:11 pm

Little waster wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:18 pm
Ijon Tichy wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:13 pm
I went to a boys-only school. By noon on my first day, our lieutenant had been killed and we were taking heavy mortar fire from the direction of the headmasters' office.
I went to a Boys-Own school, I ended my first semester single-handedly holding off a horde of marauding Afghan tribesmen with just a cricket bat and the assistance of my loyal native man-servant.

We then had bangers'n'mash to celebrate. 8-)
Cricket bat? You was lucky! We had to repel the entire Zulu nation with nothing more than a rolled up copy of the Daily Telegraph.
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