Male violence and harassment of women

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jimbob
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:22 am

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:09 pm
JQH wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:54 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:52 pm
Good thread and many informative posts.

Lee Hurst, 57, being unfunny and harassing about a teenager. Thankfully loads of people calling him out on it.

https://twitter.com/LeeHurstComic/statu ... 9476113411
This tweet is from a suspended account
I'm re-reading this thread and thought I'd just have a look at this tweet. The account is unsuspended and the tweet is still up.

In case anyone though that Twitter took sexual harassment against women and girls seriously, there's your answer.

(fwiw, I've reported the tweet)
So have I - for the second time I think.

I did it last time too.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:19 am

This is a good article on the killing of Sophie Moss and how her death has impacted her family. I do hope the appeal goes through.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... t-sentence

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:15 am

The Secret Barrister did a good thread on the clause Priti Patel claimed would "end so-called ‘rough sex defence’". The TL:DR is that the clause was meaningless. The law already protects against consenting to be injured or killed but to prove murder you need to prove intent and that's where the defence of "I intended to cause some harm that had been consented to but I didn't intend to cause serious harm or death" comes in. Just getting rid of this defence isn't a solution because it can be true in some cases and when it is the defence should be allowed. The problem is working out when the defence is valid and when it is not.

As to the Priti Patel's Bill,
all it does is put down in statute the common law principle that you can’t consent to being injured or killed.
In terms of actually ending the rough sex defence, the Secret Barrister is pessimistic that this will be possible. They end by saying,
My feeling is that the answer doesn’t lie in the law, rather in social reform, education and public awareness. But I’m happy to be wrong about this.
Certainly I think we need better education on coercion and control in relationships, and the importance of patterns of behaviour. That article makes it very clear that Sophie was a vulnerable person who had no history of BDSM while Sam Pybus has a history of sexual violence, abuse and manipulation. That his defence was believed by the judge and jury is the problem, not that the defence is allowed.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:40 am

My problem with it all is the term 'choking' instead of what it actually is, strangulation.

Choking is when there is an internal obstruction of the airways.

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questi ... s-choking/

Strangulation is external pressure on the neck that leads to obstruction of the airways and blood flow to the brain.

https://mft.nhs.uk/saint-marys/uks-larg ... -findings/

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by noggins » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 am

Isn't the other issue, why aren't these deaths - if murderous intent can not be proved - at least be considered as the highest culpability manslaughter.

Then, the genuine perverts will just have to be careful, and/or leave a paper trail, while the murderers will have to choose another excuse

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 pm

noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 am
Isn't the other issue, why aren't these deaths - if murderous intent can not be proved - at least be considered as the highest culpability manslaughter.

Then, the genuine perverts will just have to be careful, and/or leave a paper trail, while the murderers will have to choose another excuse
I would phrase that as strangulation is in and of itself a murderous intention and should therefore be seen as intent to murder in the first instance.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:25 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 pm
noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 am
Isn't the other issue, why aren't these deaths - if murderous intent can not be proved - at least be considered as the highest culpability manslaughter.

Then, the genuine perverts will just have to be careful, and/or leave a paper trail, while the murderers will have to choose another excuse
I would phrase that as strangulation is in and of itself a murderous intention and should therefore be seen as intent to murder in the first instance.
Thanks for the link, Fishnut. That was really informative.

Strangulation is not necessarily a murderous intention if it's only intended to restrict/compress the airway up to a point in a controlled way by someone who knows what they're doing. The problem arises when someone doesn't know what they're doing or what signs to look out for that indicate it's time to stop. Or they don't care.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:47 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:25 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:01 pm
noggins wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 am
Isn't the other issue, why aren't these deaths - if murderous intent can not be proved - at least be considered as the highest culpability manslaughter.

Then, the genuine perverts will just have to be careful, and/or leave a paper trail, while the murderers will have to choose another excuse
I would phrase that as strangulation is in and of itself a murderous intention and should therefore be seen as intent to murder in the first instance.
Thanks for the link, Fishnut. That was really informative.

Strangulation is not necessarily a murderous intention if it's only intended to restrict/compress the airway up to a point in a controlled way by someone who knows what they're doing. The problem arises when someone doesn't know what they're doing or what signs to look out for that indicate it's time to stop. Or they don't care.
You are wrong in my opinion, and of course you are entitled to your own. Strangulation, as evidenced by my link above, does show that a 'controlled way' is imperfect. We have been here before.

What is clear is that those who have no clue what they are doing, or who have murderous intent are more likely to do this.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:50 pm

How would a person who 'accidentally' strangled someone put up a defence?

Choking.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by WFJ » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:56 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:40 am
My problem with it all is the term 'choking' instead of what it actually is, strangulation.

Choking is when there is an internal obstruction of the airways.

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questi ... s-choking/

Strangulation is external pressure on the neck that leads to obstruction of the airways and blood flow to the brain.

https://mft.nhs.uk/saint-marys/uks-larg ... -findings/
I'm not sure that is a useful distinction. It is the blocking of someone's airways that is the dangerous part, not the cutting off of the blood supply to the brain. Compare a properly applied choke hold as used in grappling martial arts to George Floyd having his neck sat on until he was unconscious.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:12 pm

WFJ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:56 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:40 am
My problem with it all is the term 'choking' instead of what it actually is, strangulation.

Choking is when there is an internal obstruction of the airways.

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questi ... s-choking/

Strangulation is external pressure on the neck that leads to obstruction of the airways and blood flow to the brain.

https://mft.nhs.uk/saint-marys/uks-larg ... -findings/
I'm not sure that is a useful distinction. It is the blocking of someone's airways that is the dangerous part, not the cutting off of the blood supply to the brain. Compare a properly applied choke hold as used in grappling martial arts to George Floyd having his neck sat on until he was unconscious.
You have, deliberately I think, added not useful further distinctions when it comes to sexual violence against women. Are choke holds in grappling martial arts sexual - they can if improperly applied lead to unconsciousness? Are you suggesting that George Floyd, who died as a result of a knee to his neck was an act of sexual aggression?

https://www.cga.ct.gov/jud/related/2020 ... rville.pdf

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by WFJ » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:31 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:12 pm
WFJ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:56 pm
I'm not sure that is a useful distinction. It is the blocking of someone's airways that is the dangerous part, not the cutting off of the blood supply to the brain. Compare a properly applied choke hold as used in grappling martial arts to George Floyd having his neck sat on until he was unconscious.
You have, deliberately I think, added not useful further distinctions when it comes to sexual violence against women. Are choke holds in grappling martial arts sexual - they can if improperly applied lead to unconsciousness? Are you suggesting that George Floyd, who died as a result of a knee to his neck was an act of sexual aggression?

https://www.cga.ct.gov/jud/related/2020 ... rville.pdf
No obviously not.

My point was there are clearly many men and women who enjoy being strangled/choked during sex. There can be many reasons for this, but one of them is that they enjoy the hypoxic feeling of reduced blood flow in the brain. Obviously any sort of sex play like this is dangerous, but restricting blood flow to the brain is a far safer (Note: I'm saying safer, not safe) way of doing this than restricting breathing.

If blood flow is restricted, but not breathing, if things go too far, and someone loses consciousness, removing the pressure allows oxygenated blood to immediately enter the brain. When breathing is restricted, the blood itself is low in oxygen, and removing pressure does not remove the danger. This is why in martial arts people can be "safely"* choked in proper holds until unconsciousness, while George Floyd died after being unable to breathe.

For this reason a distinction between choking and strangulation that differs only in whether blood flow is restricted is not very useful.

*for some value of safe.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by WFJ » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:56 pm

Missed edit window to add:

Sorry I missed you internal/external distinction. This is not actually correct. Choking is any reduction of flow, whether due to obstruction or narrowing from compression.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:08 pm

WFJ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:56 pm
Missed edit window to add:

Sorry I missed you internal/external distinction. This is not actually correct. Choking is any reduction of flow, whether due to obstruction or narrowing from compression.
No it's not.

It's 'sex play' strangulation. You are basically putting forward a defence for 'sex play' gone wrong. Did you read the link to the Manchester study or do you not give a sh.t.

Choking is a serious condition and most of those who do choke do not lose consciousness - because the veins and main artery to the brain is not affected. This is why choking should be treated as in the link provided above.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by WFJ » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:55 pm

You referenced your description of strangulation in response to Tessa, then I misunderstood your point, and thought your distinction was that strangulation involves reduced blood flow, therefore was not a "controlled way". My point was just that this is the less dangerous (and so arguably more controlled) part of applying pressure to someones neck.

As I said, I missed your internal/external distinction, I see now you were just referring to choking because of obstruction and not choking because of compression.

I am not defending anyone of anything.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 pm

WFJ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:31 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:12 pm
WFJ wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:56 pm
I'm not sure that is a useful distinction. It is the blocking of someone's airways that is the dangerous part, not the cutting off of the blood supply to the brain. Compare a properly applied choke hold as used in grappling martial arts to George Floyd having his neck sat on until he was unconscious.
You have, deliberately I think, added not useful further distinctions when it comes to sexual violence against women. Are choke holds in grappling martial arts sexual - they can if improperly applied lead to unconsciousness? Are you suggesting that George Floyd, who died as a result of a knee to his neck was an act of sexual aggression?

https://www.cga.ct.gov/jud/related/2020 ... rville.pdf
No obviously not.

My point was there are clearly many men and women who enjoy being strangled/choked during sex. There can be many reasons for this, but one of them is that they enjoy the hypoxic feeling of reduced blood flow in the brain. Obviously any sort of sex play like this is dangerous, but restricting blood flow to the brain is a far safer (Note: I'm saying safer, not safe) way of doing this than restricting breathing.

If blood flow is restricted, but not breathing, if things go too far, and someone loses consciousness, removing the pressure allows oxygenated blood to immediately enter the brain. When breathing is restricted, the blood itself is low in oxygen, and removing pressure does not remove the danger. This is why in martial arts people can be "safely"* choked in proper holds until unconsciousness, while George Floyd died after being unable to breathe.

For this reason a distinction between choking and strangulation that differs only in whether blood flow is restricted is not very useful.

*for some value of safe.
Of course, not all BDSM play is sexual.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:44 pm

This is also bad

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... es-wanjiru


According to the Sunday Times, which has been doggedly investigating this tragedy for weeks, a man identifiable only as Soldier X has been separately named by at least four colleagues as the culprit; he is said to have confessed that night to killing a woman, leading appalled fellow soldiers to her body. One of them claims to have reported Soldier X to senior officers but not been taken seriously. Grotesquely, what happened that night was such an open secret that soldiers reportedly joked about it on Facebook, with nudge-nudge references to septic tanks and “ghosts”. The rumour in the regiment was that Agnes had been accidentally choked to death in a sex game, but that story does not explain the stab wound found on her body.

But these cases may be only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. The Tory MP Sarah Atherton, herself a former soldier in the Intelligence Corps, led a remarkable investigation earlier this year into the experiences of servicewomen and female veterans, for which the Ministry of Defence waived rules forbidding serving soldiers testifying to such inquiries. Atherton’s committee uncovered harrowing accounts of gang-rape, sexual assault, groping and exploitation. One servicewoman told MPs she found living in mess accommodation more dangerous than being deployed overseas. Others recalled contests to “bag the woman” on camp or aboard ships, and senior officers brushing complaints under the carpet to protect their own reputations. If this is what rogue soldiers do to their own female colleagues, how might they treat civilian women – often desperate or vulnerable – who they encounter on operations far from home?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by temptar » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:53 am

Some of the statistics in this are sobering. https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... 36272759-1

For note: this is not a problem unique to the UK. Ireland recently published statistics suggesting 90% of sex related crimes when unresolved.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:20 am

temptar wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:53 am
Some of the statistics in this are sobering. https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... 36272759-1

For note: this is not a problem unique to the UK. Ireland recently published statistics suggesting 90% of sex related crimes when unresolved.
I also agree with the argument that the risk factors for men to commit violent offences against women are known but almost nothing is done to identify those men and try to stop them.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:24 pm

This should go here

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 53544.html

Wrong on so many counts.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:41 am

jimbob wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:24 pm
This should go here

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 53544.html

Wrong on so many counts.
Gotta love how they censor* "f.ck" and "sh.t" but have no problem repeatedly quoting Clarkson advocating for physical abuse against a young woman.

* I checked. The original tweets used the full words, as can be seen here and here.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:38 am

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:41 am
jimbob wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:24 pm
This should go here

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 53544.html

Wrong on so many counts.
Gotta love how they censor* "f.ck" and "sh.t" but have no problem repeatedly quoting Clarkson advocating for physical abuse against a young woman.

* I checked. The original tweets used the full words, as can be seen here and here.
Commercial decisions on content in action there.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:25 pm

This is interesting, if depressing article (a phrase I use far too often). The Metro tested the efficacy of the Ask for Angela scheme in pubs in London and found very few staff knew what the phrase meant, despite there often being posters in the toilets saying they were participating in the scheme.
One barman at a pub-come-eatery, seemingly never having heard of the scheme, left me alone (which is a no-no) and disappeared to ask his manager if they run Ask For Angela – he responded that they do, in fact.
The scheme is being promoted by the Metropolitan police, who announced in the summer that they had 150-plus venues taking part. But training is voluntary for the venues that do sign up and with high staff turnover it seems that very few are being made aware that the venue is even participating, let alone being told what to do is someone actually asks for Angela.
The last place visited, a pub in Finsbury Park, had the latest Ask For Angela posters up, which have only become available in recent months. I had hoped that this would mean awareness of the scheme was fresh in the minds of staff.

Sadly, ‘Who’s Angela?,’ was the response yet again.

After speaking to the barman’s manager, he said since signing up he ‘hadn’t heard much’ from organisers of the initiative.
To compound the problems, it seems that no-one is actually recording which venues have signed up to the scheme - the Met said they don't, which also means no-one is recording when someone actually "asks for Angela" so there's no data on the efficacy of the scheme.
In fact, when the scheme first began, anyone could download an Ask For Angela poster without their details being recorded – the result of which, as the campaign stands today, is that no one truly knows which venues are providing this service.

While the Safer Business Network, who partner with the Met and facilitate WAVE training, applied for funding from the Home Office to address some of the scheme’s flaws, their request was unsuccessful as of earlier this month. Now they plan to look ‘externally’ for the money.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:11 am

jimbob wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:22 am
Fishnut wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:09 pm
JQH wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:54 pm


I'm re-reading this thread and thought I'd just have a look at this tweet. The account is unsuspended and the tweet is still up.

In case anyone though that Twitter took sexual harassment against women and girls seriously, there's your answer.

(fwiw, I've reported the tweet)
So have I - for the second time I think.

I did it last time too.
I just received a notification from Twitter saying that they had investigated my report and found that his account had been found to violate the Twitter Rules "against glorifying violence". Yet despite this, they haven't done anything. THE TWEET IS STILL UP!!!!! His account is still active. The tweet still hasn't been removed. Hurst is still merrily tweeting b.llsh.t about coronavirus and anything else that he considers to be "woke" and his disgusting comment about Greta is still there for all the world to see.

What the f.ck is wrong with Twitter???
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:28 pm

I've moved the rest of the discussion on Twitter and social media over to:viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2965&p=104479#p104514

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