Male violence and harassment of women

[Woodchopper]

Suppose so.

Nevertheless, in general

Wayne Couzens is in court for sentencing today for the kidnapping, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. It has been revealed that he used his police ID card and the covid restrictions to "arrest" her in plain sight of witnesses.

Explain to me how any woman is supposed to trust the police?

Let's not forget that Couzen's nickname among his colleagues was "the rapist". They knew about him but they didn't care. They didn't care that there was a man who was clearly a risk to women in a position of authority and power and he was allowed to remain in that position until after he'd taken a life.

And this isn't "one bad apple". It's indicative of a systemic problem with the police. The Femicide Census reported yesterday that at least 15 serving or former police officers have killed women since 2009, the majority of whom were their partners. Is it any wonder that the police are so useless when it comes to violence against women?

So right now all I can think is f.ck the police. f.ck them all. They aren't there to protect us - sure, there may be the odd one of two - but the SYSTEM is not on our side. It gives power to men who abuse it to abuse and hurt and rape and kill women. And all their colleagues do is give bland apologies about bad apples as if that's supposed to be sufficient. ONE BAD APPLE SPOILS THE WHOLE BARREL. The point of that saying isn't that one bad apple doesn't matter, it's the complete opposite - that one bad apple, if not removed but instead left to rot will infect everything else. If you ignore that bad apple you all get tainted. You are all complicit. Everyone who laughed at his nickname, who ignored female colleagues concerns, who decided not to investigate the claims of indecent exposure, they are all complicit and all responsible for Sarah's murder.

this whole case seems to be an extremely damning revelation of the "thin blue line" protecting officers known to be dangerous. I can't see how the police are supposed to be fit-for-purpose dealing with sexual assaults.

Yes, the whole thing is very dodgy. Just speculation but I assumed that if they were worried he was armed then they might have been trying to check where his police firearm was.

[Fishnut]

I've not seen any mention of fearing he had firearms in his house, either in relation to the delay in his arrest or otherwise. This article from soon after his arrest says,

On Tuesday night, shortly after returning home from a shift in London, Couzens, 49, who who protected diplomats and VIPs, was arrested on suspicion of kidnap and murder, and a separate allegation of indecent exposure.

Neighbours claim police had the home of the armed officer, who worked in the Westminster-based Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command, under surveillance in the hours before the arrest...

A witness said she saw two men in a Land Rover watching the house at about 5pm on Tuesday before they went to the door two hours later.

Between 15 and 20 more officers were hidden around the corner as the house was stormed, the neighbour added.

It is understood detectives have found no link between the suspect and Ms Everard.

So, even if it wasn't a mate in the Met who alerted him, it seems possible that the neighbours were talking about what was going on. If he or his wife were on Next Door or similar then I can very easily imagine him getting alerted to the sh.t being about to hit the fan.

I really hope that any inquiry into the series of failings that allowed Couzens to be put in a position where he could kidnap a member of the public under the guise of an arrest, rape and murder them, also investigates why police took so long to enter his property after having arrived at it. It's one thing to be back at the police station wondering whether or not to raid a place, entirely another to dither about round the corner for 2 hours in view of the neighbours because you don't like arresting one of your own.

[dyqik]

You only need a video door bell or a cheap security camera to see people sitting in a land Rover on the street.

[Fishnut]

Keir Starmer not really grasping the problems in his speech today,

Or the young women I met recently in Stoke who told me they dare not go to their high street alone. They see more violence and fewer police. It’s just common sense to put the two together.

Yeah, it's the lack of police that's making us scared, Keir

[jimbob]

There's a lot wrong with UK policing. Especially the Met.

It's not the first time that fairly basic vetting should have spotted a problem.

[Bird on a Fire]

And sadly the leader of the opposition seems to have a bit of a blind spot to them.

[Fishnut]

He's been given a whole life sentence. The sentencing remarks are here, though I haven't had a chance to read through them yet.

What we need now is a proper inquiry into how a man like Couzens could ever become a police officer. He may be the worst of the bunch but he's not unique. There are many men with histories of domestic abuse and sexual harassment who are allowed to join the police and allowed to keep their jobs even after credible allegations have been made. Many times those allegations are ignored. I want to know why. If the police really want to gain back the trust of women then they need to explain why they allow men who have such a blatant disregard for us in the force in the first place and what they're going to do to kick them out and make sure that more of the same don't get hired as replacements.

[mediocrity511]

https://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/br ... nd-sexist/

This is also relevant to that. The way the Met infiltrated protest groups and undercover operatives pursued relationships with women has been found to have violated human rights and to be sexist discrimination. Obviously nowhere near Couzens, but it shows issues with the police force's attitudes towards women.

[Fishnut]

https://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/br ... nd-sexist/

This is also relevant to that. The way the Met infiltrated protest groups and undercover operatives pursued relationships with women has been found to have violated human rights and to be sexist discrimination. Obviously nowhere near Couzens, but it shows issues with the police force's attitudes towards women.

So true. They have a systemic disregard for women that shows up in so much of what they do (and don't do).

[Tessa K]

Some coppers join up at 18, well before they develop detectable violent or misogynist tendencies so they're harder to weed out.

It's good to see that the BBC is now calling him a Met police officer rather than a former policeman which was ambiguous and made it sound like the job was in the past, which could let the Met off the hook.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614

[Fishnut]

Some coppers join up at 18, well before they develop detectable violent or misogynist tendencies so they're harder to weed out.

Yes, they do, which is why any allegations of any misconduct (whether personal or professional) need to be properly and thoroughly investigated and not just swept under the rug as happens so often, and proper repercussions faced if they are found to be guilty.

It's good to see that the BBC is now calling him a Met police officer rather than a former policeman which was ambiguous and made it sound like the job was in the past, which could let the Met off the hook.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614

Good. I was incredibly frustrated with the implication he wasn't an active officer when he kidnapped, raped and strangled Sarah. I get that the police want to distance themselves from him but they shouldn't be allowed to.

I just saw this example of police abusing their powers against a 17 year old black girl. It's got no sources so may well be made up but it's got enough detail that I'm sure someone who knows what they're doing could find records were they suspicious. And while I believe it, even if it is made up it's a story we've seen many times before. Police regularly abuse their powers. This may be the first time (though I highly doubt it) that an officer has abused their powers to kidnap, rape and murder a woman but they abuse them in lesser ways all the time. The treatment that the women attending the vigil for Sarah received is testament to that.

[Aoui]

Awhile ago I made the remark that I couldn't remember most of the times I've been harassed or even scared. It's so common that it just melts out of my memory after awhile. Well, this morning I was laying in bed waking up and for no reason that I can point to, I started thinking of an incident when I was a teenager. I babysat for a student in my mom's class (she was a teacher in a grade school). The kids were asleep when the step father came home. He kept wanting me to go with him into the garage and look at his car. He was really insistent. I didn't care about his car and I just wanted to go home. I was so uncomfortable telling him no, but there was something about the whole thing that made me really nervous. I was completely creeped out by it, but too polite to confront him. I don't remember the girl's mom being around at that moment and if she had, I probably would have not been so disturbed by him. I'd also accidentally found a hard core p.rn movie that had been put under an innocuous title while getting out movies to watch one time (I don't know if that was before or after this creepy experience) in amongst all the other videos...just the usual videos kids watch and popular movies. I'd never seen any p.rn nor had any sexual experience, but I turned it off after a few seconds and was a bit freaked out because I can tell you now that it was pretty hard core. He'd been the one to tell me to watch any video I wanted to, I think. I don't think I told my mom, because what was I supposed to say ? This guy wanted me to look at his car or that I found a p.rn movie when I knew that a lot of adults watch p.rn.. I found out later that the mom and the step dad had broken up because she found out he'd sexually abused the oldest girl in the family. I felt awful that I hadn't told my mom about the video (I hadn't seen enough of it to see if it was abuse but it did sound more like a grown woman screaming than a child but it did seem rather...umm...not consensual) or about how creepy I thought the step-father was. I realized then that it had felt creepy for a reason and I'm 100% sure he would have tried something with me if I'd given into his pressure to go into that garage. I know I'll forget about this whole thing the next time someone asks if I've ever been harassed or felt in danger.....and it will live with all the other memories of near misses and things we'd considered petty grievances back in the day. I'll always feel a bit guilty that maybe, just maybe I could have saved that little girl from him...even though I realize it's not truly my fault. Okay...truth is...if I'd told my mom, she probably would have taken me seriously...but that is hind sight. And I'm not sure if she'd have made any headway with the mother at that point....or if there would have been any suspicion about what he was up to with the girl.... I wonder how she is doing now and I wouldn't know how to find her and I doubt this is something she'd want dragged back up. But...I just wanted to write this down so it doesn't melt back ....if for no other reason than that I was lucky enough to be able to get away..unlike the little girl....

[jimbob]

That's horrible

[Tessa K]

Why is it when anyone in authority says lessons will be learned they're always lessons that should have been learned years ago? #CressidaDick

[bagpuss]

Why is it when anyone in authority says lessons will be learned they're always lessons that should have been learned years ago? #CressidaDick

And they still won't be learned.

[Grumble]

Awhile ago I made the remark that I couldn't remember most of the times I've been harassed or even scared. It's so common that it just melts out of my memory after awhile. Well, this morning I was laying in bed waking up and for no reason that I can point to, I started thinking of an incident when I was a teenager. I babysat for a student in my mom's class (she was a teacher in a grade school). The kids were asleep when the step father came home. He kept wanting me to go with him into the garage and look at his car. He was really insistent. I didn't care about his car and I just wanted to go home. I was so uncomfortable telling him no, but there was something about the whole thing that made me really nervous. I was completely creeped out by it, but too polite to confront him. I don't remember the girl's mom being around at that moment and if she had, I probably would have not been so disturbed by him. I'd also accidentally found a hard core p.rn movie that had been put under an innocuous title while getting out movies to watch one time (I don't know if that was before or after this creepy experience) in amongst all the other videos...just the usual videos kids watch and popular movies. I'd never seen any p.rn nor had any sexual experience, but I turned it off after a few seconds and was a bit freaked out because I can tell you now that it was pretty hard core. He'd been the one to tell me to watch any video I wanted to, I think. I don't think I told my mom, because what was I supposed to say ? This guy wanted me to look at his car or that I found a p.rn movie when I knew that a lot of adults watch p.rn.. I found out later that the mom and the step dad had broken up because she found out he'd sexually abused the oldest girl in the family. I felt awful that I hadn't told my mom about the video (I hadn't seen enough of it to see if it was abuse but it did sound more like a grown woman screaming than a child but it did seem rather...umm...not consensual) or about how creepy I thought the step-father was. I realized then that it had felt creepy for a reason and I'm 100% sure he would have tried something with me if I'd given into his pressure to go into that garage. I know I'll forget about this whole thing the next time someone asks if I've ever been harassed or felt in danger.....and it will live with all the other memories of near misses and things we'd considered petty grievances back in the day. I'll always feel a bit guilty that maybe, just maybe I could have saved that little girl from him...even though I realize it's not truly my fault. Okay...truth is...if I'd told my mom, she probably would have taken me seriously...but that is hind sight. And I'm not sure if she'd have made any headway with the mother at that point....or if there would have been any suspicion about what he was up to with the girl.... I wonder how she is doing now and I wouldn't know how to find her and I doubt this is something she'd want dragged back up. But...I just wanted to write this down so it doesn't melt back ....if for no other reason than that I was lucky enough to be able to get away..unlike the little girl....

I assume grade school is for young kids? That’s pretty f.cked up. Did you ever babysit for them again or were you asked to and refused? I’m just wondering if that would have prompted a discussion or whether you would have swallowed your fears and gone back into that house?

[Boustrophedon]

Some coppers join up at 18, well before they develop detectable violent or misogynist tendencies so they're harder to weed out.

It's good to see that the BBC is now calling him a Met police officer rather than a former policeman which was ambiguous and made it sound like the job was in the past, which could let the Met off the hook.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614

Having taught boys from 11 to 18, I think it would be sadly truer to say that the tendencies can develop before 18, but may only become expressed later with increased opportunity and out of parental control. Sometimes with increasing age comes the realisation that said attitudes and urges are best hidden from their fellow man.

I have taught boys aged just 14 or so with truly shocking attitudes towards females but by 18 they pass as acceptable human beings: What would I have done if I had been asked to write a reference for one of those wanting to join the Police? I am not sure what I, or anyone could have legally said.

[Fishnut]

It would be funny if the circumstances weren't so tragic to see the police tying themselves in knots trying to find a way to give women instructions on how to stay safe when interacting with police officers. The Guardian has a brief write-up on a few of the various methods being suggested and some of the problems with them.

None of their suggestions so far will work because the trust that is fundamental for them to work is gone.

You're being detained by an officer and aren't sure if it's for a legitimate reason. The advice is to get them to show you their warrant card. Except, that just says they're an officer, it says nothing about their motives for detaining you. And Sarah was shown a legitimate warrant card and being detained under legislation that was already being abused by police officers (not helped by the fact the law was so badly written that most people, including police, didn't know exactly what it allowed and prohibited). If you're still not happy you're told you can phone the control room and have their ID confirmed. But again, that just confirms they're an officer, not that they are detaining you legitimately. And while, maybe, phoning the control room and confirming that you are speaking to such and such officer may make them less likely to abduct, rape and murder you, who knows for sure? And what if they don't want to rape you, they just get off on falsely imprisoning you, and do take you back to the station and put you in a cell and watch you stress for a few hours before they decide to let you go?

One female police officer speaking to LBC today said that if they were stopped by a plain-clothes officer in a quiet street and "genuinely fearful" they'd run away. Which, a lawyer pointed out, would be breaking the law.

Another female officer speaking on BBC World at One admitted that female officers don't always report suspicious behaviour of male colleagues because they close ranks and can leave you without backup when needed.

A culture of misogyny exists within the police., Former Greater Manchester Police Constable Sir Peter Fahy said in March,

I have three grown-up daughters. If a member of my family was attacked, I would probably say no they shouldn’t report it,...There is no way my daughters would join policing. They wouldn’t be comfortable there.

The idea that it's just a few "bad apples" that can be ignored because the majority of the police are good is such a load of crap. It is clear that there misogyny is endemic in the police. A quick google search reveals the following headlines, all from this year, all different stories:
Met Police investigating claims officer raped two female colleagues but escaped suspension

Preston police officer who slapped female colleague's bum and unclipped another's bra as a 'laugh' is cleared of 13 sexual assault charges This one's from Preston

Former police chief tells of sexual assaults by colleagues This one's from Nottinghamshire

Police officer charged with sex assault on colleague after probe into toxic ‘boys’ club’ at station This one's from Scotland

Detective 'brainwashed' sexual assault victim This one's from Somerset. The victim was a colleague, and was "alleged to have assaulted three female officers and faces more than 40 allegations of misconduct."

Police officer attacked wife and colleague after suspecting they were kissing on Christmas night out This one's from Wales. His wife was also a police officer. He was allowed to keep his job.

I could go on but honestly I can't face reading more of these stories.

Harold Shipman has been trending on twitter as a result of Couzens' sentencing, with people saying that people didn't stop trusting doctors because of Shipman so we shouldn't stop trusting police as a result of Couzens. Except
1) there was very little evidence to suggest that Shipman was the tip of an iceberg or representative of a culture of killing patients, whereas there is clear evidence going back many years showing that the police force has a problem with misogyny and disregard for women, and
2) there was a wide-ranging inquiry that led to extensive reforms. I saw the consequences myself when I worked as an admin at a local crematorium - three separate doctors are required to sign off the paperwork before a cremation can take place. Two in the hospital signing the death certificate and a third doctor who comes to the crematorium and checks over everything. If they're not happy then they can, and will, prevent a cremation from going ahead until they are satisfied that everything is above board.
So far I've not seen anything that suggests that there will be anything even remotely approaching the scale of the response that there was to Shipman. Given how little change happened after the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, or after the Lammy report, both of which detailed the systemic racism endemic in the police and criminal justice system I know that even if there was an Inquiry nothing significant would come from it. But at least we'd have all the evidence in one place, which I guess is something.

[Fishnut]

Police taking misuse of warrant cards would be a start. From May,

A police officer who told a lone jogger she was "too curvy to be Asian" and harassed her for her number has kept his job after a misconduct probe.

PC Imran Aftab flashed his warrant card at the woman and made sexually inappropriate comments in Hammersmith, west London.

[nekomatic]

Amplifying what fishnut said, here’s possibly an even stronger rebuttal of the Shipman comparison:

https://twitter.com/jasebyjason/status/ ... 32608?s=21

[Aoui]

I assume grade school is for young kids? That’s pretty f.cked up. Did you ever babysit for them again or were you asked to and refused? I’m just wondering if that would have prompted a discussion or whether you would have swallowed your fears and gone back into that house?
[/quote]

The little girl was around 10-1. She was in 6th grade, which was still in grade school instead of middle school in our town in those days. I asked my mom yesterday if she knew where the girl (okay...she's in her mid-40's now) is and how she is doing. My mom barely remembers the family. It turns out I'd never told her about any of it. He used tried to coerce me verbally, not physically so that if I told anyone it would have sounded silly to say "He asked me to go look at his car". He didn't back down easily and just kept using my politeness to almost guilt me into going in there. It was 100% creep, but without force or any mention of sex there was no way I'd ever have had a foot to stand on if I accused him of anything. I doubt I ever went back, but if I did I made sure I was never alone with him. I was sufficiently leary of him that I really can't imagine I did. I never told my mom and now know that she would have believed me, but what could she have done? I was in Oklahoma and it was the mid 80's. I didn't suspect at the time that he was doing anything to her, though in hindsight I should have. If he was willing to creep on the babysitter, he was likely to be willing to do the same to his step-daughters who couldn't back out of the house politely saying they needed to drive home now. But I've always felt that if I'd told...maybe she could have been spared. All the maybes will get you down....but still....I do wonder if I could have spared her sometimes. She was just a little kid.

[JQH]

A friend of mine made the point on Facebook that even if she had seen Couzens "arresting" Sarah Everard she wouldn't have intervened as the situation looked legit. Now she feels that in the future, witnessing a similar situation, she would have to do something. But what?

Obviously not try to prevent the arrest but perhaps check the cops ID then go on her way. The cop and arrestee now know there is an independent witness who can identify him if he does anything criminal.

And ffs the cops are STILL banging on about "More patrols to make women feel safer". That won't work until all the rapists and violent cops have been weeded out and the police are seen to have a zero tolerance approach to misconduct in the ranks.

[noggins]

Where can we find out what a legit arrest would look like and how to intervene as unillegally as possible in a suspicious one.

[JQH]

I think cops will have to be prepared to give their names and numbers to passing members of the public if requested to do so, even if the arrest looks and is perfectly legitimate.

[Fishnut]

I'm getting to the point where if I see someone being arrested or even questioned by police in a way that looks like they may be overstepping I'm going to start filming. Netpol have a good "rough guide" to filming the police.

The TL:DR is
- ask permission of the person being stopped by the police, saying that “I’m here to make sure the police don’t do anything to you they are not supposed to. Is it OK if I film what the police are doing?”. This also gets around any claims of the police that you are breaching their privacy. Obviously, if they say they don't want to be filmed then stop but if they are ok then continue.

- if the police say you're obstructing them in their duties, step back and say “I have no intention of obstructing you” but continue filming

- focus on the police officers, not the person they are detaining. Get their officers' numbers and say them out loud for the camera if you can

- don't film the person being detained unless absolutely necessary, so you don't accidentally gather evidence for the police. Avoid filming their face or any identifiable clothing. Don't film anything the police can use against them, this includes swearing.

- try and get some landmarks at the end of your video, such as street signs or identifiable buildings

- film in landscape, not portrait. Keep the camera still and don't add a commentary.

- back up the footage as soon as possible. If the person is let go ask if they wish to exchange details so you can give them the footage.