Male violence and harassment of women

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jimbob
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:48 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:19 pm
jimbob wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:07 pm
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/uk-wo ... 56-6063782

Is this the same as the previous one?

I'm uneasy about his anonymity being protected for life to protect his mental health.
What previous one?

It could be misinterpreted to protect his family.
Found it - this one, which was different

Couldn't the same argument for anonymity be made for virtually anyone with innocent family members?

Gfamily wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:59 am
Another "gross misconduct" by police officer.
At least this was given some sanction

https://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/c ... al-8392950

Took 10 years to resolve, and he keeps the promotion achieved in the meantime.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by nezumi » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm

discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I've never been into a refuge myself but my Mum's last marriage* was violent and she did go into refuge at one point, long after the family had given up trying to help her. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.

The only help you can really give someone who is in that kind of violent/coercive relationship is to make it clear that your door is always open and you will help them leave when they are ready.

* The current one was pretty awful too, but now he's terminally ill and weak he can't hurt her anymore.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.

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Woodchopper
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:50 pm

nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
The only help you can really give someone who is in that kind of violent/coercive relationship is to make it clear that your door is always open and you will help them leave when they are ready.
Yes. We've talked about this before, and there is a danger that trying to be more active may be counterproductive and result in the victim being further cut off from sources of support. Obviously every situation is different and people need to do what they think is best in the situation.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by temptar » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:27 pm

nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.
There is a generation of people deemed to have made poor decisions who were socialised into making their bed and lying on it. Often they were women in poor marriages and the implication was always that they had earned their sufferance.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:02 pm

discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
We wouldn't have been able to do it without the help of the men who facilitated the move, physically and emotionally - her male cousins were extremely protective, and helped get a new phone,

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:08 pm

nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I've never been into a refuge myself but my Mum's last marriage* was violent and she did go into refuge at one point, long after the family had given up trying to help her. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.

The only help you can really give someone who is in that kind of violent/coercive relationship is to make it clear that your door is always open and you will help them leave when they are ready.

* The current one was pretty awful too, but now he's terminally ill and weak he can't hurt her anymore.
I'm sorry to hear about your mum. My sister always says to me about the death or violence to a woman living with a partner, well why didn't she just leave him? Why did she have children with him? To which I always reply that abusive relationships often don't happen until pregnancy occurs and then it becomes complicated.

Thankfully in all maternity services there is either a code or a number to ring. Abuse includes withdrawal of money and isolation from family.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:37 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:08 pm
nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm


Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I've never been into a refuge myself but my Mum's last marriage* was violent and she did go into refuge at one point, long after the family had given up trying to help her. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.

The only help you can really give someone who is in that kind of violent/coercive relationship is to make it clear that your door is always open and you will help them leave when they are ready.

* The current one was pretty awful too, but now he's terminally ill and weak he can't hurt her anymore.
I'm sorry to hear about your mum. My sister always says to me about the death or violence to a woman living with a partner, well why didn't she just leave him? Why did she have children with him? To which I always reply that abusive relationships often don't happen until pregnancy occurs and then it becomes complicated.

Thankfully in all maternity services there is either a code or a number to ring. Abuse includes withdrawal of money and isolation from family.
Add to that abusers can be highly manipulative, which applies to the victim and their friends and family.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pm

[/quote]Add to that abusers can be highly manipulative, which applies to the victim and their friends and family.[/quote]

He rang all her family members that night protesting his innocence. Thankfully, none of them believed him.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:45 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:27 pm
nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.
There is a generation of people deemed to have made poor decisions who were socialised into making their bed and lying on it. Often they were women in poor marriages and the implication was always that they had earned their sufferance.
In the past, many women couldn't afford to leave, especially as they had children. I was once told by a woman that the change in benefits that allowed her to claim enough to support her kids changed her life as it meant she could afford to leave her husband.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:52 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:45 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:27 pm
nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.
There is a generation of people deemed to have made poor decisions who were socialised into making their bed and lying on it. Often they were women in poor marriages and the implication was always that they had earned their sufferance.
In the past, many women couldn't afford to leave, especially as they had children. I was once told by a woman that the change in benefits that allowed her to claim enough to support her kids changed her life as it meant she could afford to leave her husband.
In the US there was also the whole issue of married women not being able to get bank accounts and credit cards without their husband's permission, let along a mortgage. I'm not sure what the UK situation was with that.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by temptar » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:35 pm

1975, for the UK, I think

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:12 pm

temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:35 pm
1975, for the UK, I think
Thanks.

I wonder how long after that there was a culture of women not having direct access to money or keeping their own accounts once they were married (probably there still is to some degree)? Particularly back when pay was commonly in cash or by cheque. Leaving needs access to money.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by mediocrity511 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:12 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:35 pm
1975, for the UK, I think
Thanks.

I wonder how long after that there was a culture of women not having direct access to money or keeping their own accounts once they were married (probably there still is to some degree)? Particularly back when pay was commonly in cash or by cheque. Leaving needs access to money.
Wasn't this in part why child benefit/family allowance type payments were made to the mother of children, because it might be the only money that she had access to? It's one pfmthe reasons why UC with its single payment to the household is problematic.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm

mediocrity511 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm
dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:12 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:35 pm
1975, for the UK, I think
Thanks.

I wonder how long after that there was a culture of women not having direct access to money or keeping their own accounts once they were married (probably there still is to some degree)? Particularly back when pay was commonly in cash or by cheque. Leaving needs access to money.
Wasn't this in part why child benefit/family allowance type payments were made to the mother of children, because it might be the only money that she had access to? It's one pfmthe reasons why UC with its single payment to the household is problematic.
Possibly, although I suspect it was mainly because of moral panic type fears that pay packets weren't making it home to pay for child expenses, but getting drunk or gambled away.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bjn » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:08 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm
mediocrity511 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm
dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:12 pm


Thanks.

I wonder how long after that there was a culture of women not having direct access to money or keeping their own accounts once they were married (probably there still is to some degree)? Particularly back when pay was commonly in cash or by cheque. Leaving needs access to money.
Wasn't this in part why child benefit/family allowance type payments were made to the mother of children, because it might be the only money that she had access to? It's one pfmthe reasons why UC with its single payment to the household is problematic.
Possibly, although I suspect it was mainly because of moral panic type fears that pay packets weren't making it home to pay for child expenses, but getting drunk or gambled away.
Rather than being a moral panic, I thought there had been studies that showed that if you give the mother money directly it was much more likely to be spent on children than if given to the father.

Anecdata, my aunt had a child that she left behind in Italy while she went to work as a domestic in the UK. The money she sent back to her brothers to look after my cousin was promptly spent on themselves, mainly booze.
Last edited by bjn on Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:14 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:08 pm
dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm
mediocrity511 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm


Wasn't this in part why child benefit/family allowance type payments were made to the mother of children, because it might be the only money that she had access to? It's one pfmthe reasons why UC with its single payment to the household is problematic.
Possibly, although I suspect it was mainly because of moral panic type fears that pay packets weren't making it home to pay for child expenses, but getting drunk or gambled away.
Rather than being a moral panic, I thought there had been studies that showed that, if you give the mother money directly it was much more likely to be spent on children than if given to the father.
That's certainly a well-known finding from aid programs in poorer countries - financially empowering women specifically has a huge range of benefits over and above those of simply increasing household income.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:51 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:08 pm
dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm
mediocrity511 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm


Wasn't this in part why child benefit/family allowance type payments were made to the mother of children, because it might be the only money that she had access to? It's one pfmthe reasons why UC with its single payment to the household is problematic.
Possibly, although I suspect it was mainly because of moral panic type fears that pay packets weren't making it home to pay for child expenses, but getting drunk or gambled away.
Rather than being a moral panic, I thought there had been studies that showed that if you give the mother money directly it was much more likely to be spent on children than if given to the father.

Anecdata, my aunt had a child that she left behind in Italy while she went to work as a domestic in the UK. The money she sent back to her brothers to look after my cousin was promptly spent on themselves, mainly booze.
Yeah, I think it was evidence based, but I suspect the moral panic element meant that the evidence had an effect.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by temptar » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:52 am

dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:12 pm
temptar wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:35 pm
1975, for the UK, I think
Thanks.

I wonder how long after that there was a culture of women not having direct access to money or keeping their own accounts once they were married (probably there still is to some degree)? Particularly back when pay was commonly in cash or by cheque. Leaving needs access to money.
It varies. I think there are still a lot of joint accounts knocking around and women saved running away money in cash because otherwise they couldn't keep it secret.

For Ireland, a whole host of laws relating to children's rights changed during the 1970s, including the marriage bar. Details specific to banking autonomy I can't find. But women weren't even allowed to own their homes until the mid 1970s, even if they were the spouse paying for them so on bank accounts....

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by temptar » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:10 am

mediocrity511 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm
Wasn't this in part why child benefit/family allowance type payments were made to the mother of children, because it might be the only money that she had access to? It's one pfmthe reasons why UC with its single payment to the household is problematic.
I just went looking into banking rights for women in Ireland, because other post and in that research discovered that a children's allowance was paid in Ireland from the 1940s (yay) but by law it had to be paid to the father (boo). That was only changed in the 1970s too.

While I am at it, there is a comparison here. The UK rate is a bit miserly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

I am not sure it is the question directly of child poverty that underpins that direction to allow women to collect it. There were some acquis communautaires that Ireland had to apply post 1973 and some of those related to things like equal pay, and assorted other rights plus the women's rights movements had been agitating for some of them for years.

The thing is: this demonstrates just how recently a lot of western society stopped seeing women as a possession and it is not an overnight change. We know from Ireland that it took a minimum of three to four generations to work out divisions from the civil war and that was a short sharp shock. A culture of undervaluing and taking women goes back 100s of years.

I strongly recommend reading Laura Bates "Men Who Hate Women" by the way. She deep dives incels, pickup artists and MGTOW. Some of the discussions in the incel community are highly concerning.

(Just yo touch back to the subject and not completely derail).

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:58 am

It wasn't just about money in the past. There was also the issue of where women could go if they left the marital home. When people stayed in the same neighbourhood or the same town, the only place they could possibly go was back to their families but then the husband would know where they were and there would also be the issue of gossip and shame to deal with.

For wealthy women money wasn't the issue but men would want to hold onto any male children so if a woman did leave she might never see her children again.

If a woman snapped and hit her husband round the head with the frying pan then there were no mitigating circumstances in law, she was a murderer. At least now it's recognised that years of hidden abuse can provoke that kind of response although I don't know how sympathetically such women are treated.

In my family, my dad was the sole earner and there was a joint bank account with my mum being 'allowed' housekeeping money. She used to squirrel away any bits of cash she could so at least she had a bit of autonomy but all the big financial decisions were made by him. He also had control of paying all the bills etc so when he died she didn't know how much money there was. Luckily she gave me power of attorney so I could help her out but my dad always refused to give it to me for him because he wouldn't give up control, even though that made things difficult in the last couple of years of his life. This was all the norm for that generation.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:30 am

There are some interesting posts on the Serial Killers thread about murder and violence against women of colour and indigenous women in the Americas and Australia, and how little attention that gets from the police or the media.

Eg this viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2803&p=99924#p99894

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:21 pm

nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I've never been into a refuge myself but my Mum's last marriage* was violent and she did go into refuge at one point, long after the family had given up trying to help her. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.

The only help you can really give someone who is in that kind of violent/coercive relationship is to make it clear that your door is always open and you will help them leave when they are ready.

* The current one was pretty awful too, but now he's terminally ill and weak he can't hurt her anymore.
Ooft, I'm really sorry to hear that nezumi.

So far I have not helped anyone escape abuse in a personal capacity, but I try to be alert to signs and look out for friends if it seems they might be in an iffy situation. I've done lots of work with victims of domestic abuse professionally - getting court orders, trying to help people get rehoused etc. Mind you I have also helped known perpetrators of abuse get housed. Perhaps that makes me a bad person...I am not sure if getting them housed may help their ex partners, by perhaps making it less likely they will turn up banging on their door demanding/begging to be let in. Seems logical but not a given of course.

Here is an article about a similar topic although it doesn't address that question directly https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/ne ... ment-68165 lots of issues coming out of that...
I'M HEATING STREAKY BACON IN A TROUSER PRESS

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:01 pm

discovolante wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:21 pm
nezumi wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 pm
discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm


Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I've never been into a refuge myself but my Mum's last marriage* was violent and she did go into refuge at one point, long after the family had given up trying to help her. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped - her excuse for not leaving him was "I've made my bed, now I'll lie in it". Which to me sounds absolutely nuts but... well, she wasn't in her right mind at the time.

The only help you can really give someone who is in that kind of violent/coercive relationship is to make it clear that your door is always open and you will help them leave when they are ready.

* The current one was pretty awful too, but now he's terminally ill and weak he can't hurt her anymore.
Ooft, I'm really sorry to hear that nezumi.

So far I have not helped anyone escape abuse in a personal capacity, but I try to be alert to signs and look out for friends if it seems they might be in an iffy situation. I've done lots of work with victims of domestic abuse professionally - getting court orders, trying to help people get rehoused etc. Mind you I have also helped known perpetrators of abuse get housed. Perhaps that makes me a bad person...I am not sure if getting them housed may help their ex partners, by perhaps making it less likely they will turn up banging on their door demanding/begging to be let in. Seems logical but not a given of course.

Here is an article about a similar topic although it doesn't address that question directly https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/ne ... ment-68165 lots of issues coming out of that...
I've been to a social situation where there has been amongst all of us as guests a WTF moment. A delightful dinner party, with an older woman then with children doing her very best. We didn't say a word, because to do so would mean a punishment for the woman after we left he really was that creepy - a professor at a university. I gave this woman a hug and thanked her for a gorgeous meal and also thanked her husband - I had to shower afterwards. I later was glad to learn she left him and moved back to England.

I was young then, in my 20s, but I will never forget it. He showed his 'cards' so to speak over her wanting to watch Coronation Street - it was her connection in Ireland to her mum in England.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by individualmember » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:26 pm

discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I’ve been pondering whether to answer this, but yes. Just to be clear, it wasn’t really me and I’ve never been inside a refuge but the woman we helped was a colleague of my wife. We put her up in our flat for a couple of weeks while she decided what to do. I recall my wife talking with her late some nights, but I don’t think I had anything to say, I just put food on the table and made sure she had whatever everyday stuff she needed. Perhaps it would be better to say my wife is the one who helped, I just provided a background for it.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:53 pm

individualmember wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:26 pm
discovolante wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm
purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
I’ve been pondering whether to answer this, but yes. Just to be clear, it wasn’t really me and I’ve never been inside a refuge but the woman we helped was a colleague of my wife. We put her up in our flat for a couple of weeks while she decided what to do. I recall my wife talking with her late some nights, but I don’t think I had anything to say, I just put food on the table and made sure she had whatever everyday stuff she needed. Perhaps it would be better to say my wife is the one who helped, I just provided a background for it.
You helped. Just like the men helped to take away my friend's furniture, especially her piano.

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