Male violence and harassment of women

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Squeak
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:19 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:23 pm
Squeak wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:23 pm
... I'm pretty sure you've been present when similar sh.t happened to your female friends, though you may not have noticed. I'm pretty sure you've heard men joking about these sorts of things and maybe you're such an innocent that you thought they were only jokes. Or maybe you've spent your life keeping your female friends safe and reining in the men around you who make them unsafe. If you have, and you have wisdom to share, please do so.
I feel I have hopelessly little of value to add to this thread but this one thing struck a chord.

Men don't talk about sex.

All necessarily in my experience, and I'm talking about decades past and to be honest the men I know don't talk about football either. Anyway, IME men did not talk about sex in any way that was not completely abstracted from personal experience, and it was a genuine shock to me to learn that women did. (In a minor argument when things were starting to go wrong with a relationship, she bolstered her argument with the reactions of her fellow nurses when she had read my letter out to them. (Yeah, that's how long ago it was. A letter.) I was flabbergasted. I can't now remember the contents, only that I would never in a million years have imagined sharing the similar stuff she had written with anyone, let alone using it to entertain work friends in their coffee break.)

Maybe a bigger surprise was that I had a girlfriend. A theme of my younger life was having no idea how to approach women* and a dread of saying or doing the wrong thing that left me frozen and doing nothing. I believe I'm quoting Billy Connolly: I'm not even going to tell you how old I was when I lost my virginity because you'll all just laugh. So the idea that I might admonish my younger self to pull my friends up when they brag about their inappropriate misbehaviour would probably be met with a request to explain WTF I was talking about.

*I don't mean in work or study. Absolutely no problem at all with friendships. Just anything-more-than-friends.
I think that night be sadly true for a lot of men. I'm very sorry your ex read out your letters to mates - that seems pretty unkind and I can't think of my friends doing sonething similar. Except the poem from my stalker that started "Eyes so black and full of evil" but that's wasn't very romantic, really, so I considered it fair game.

But my women friends do all talk about things like contraception and other aspects of our romantic lives in ways that shock our make friends when they see it. I've had far too many conversations with new partners about contraception where it's clear they have absolutely no knowledge or opinions to share because they've never registered that it's their business to know any details.

I've had conversations with male work colleagues and volunteers about how to behave so as not to freak out women, where it's so obvious that nobody ever mentioned to them that, for example, propositioning women in places where they can't really escape (e.g. in their workplace where they need to spend all day every day with you) is not something to do unless you have very clear signals of interest. Just yesterday, a friend told us something her husband did that, while maybe ok, had five women now on high alert for more signs of controlling behaviour. I foresee a likely awkward conversation between me and him about freedom for the women we love. I don't think any of his male friends will know he needs the conversation or act on it.

"Gossip" has always played a crucial role in human society for teaching people the finer details of social acceptability. If men never gossip and chat about sex and romance or only ever hear jokes about those things, then not only will some of them accidentally get things wrong in catastrophic ways but the real predators will be very effectively hidden.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Grumble » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:41 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:53 pm
This is an excellent piece that I urge everyone to read.
Thanks Fishnut. I’ve read it but I think I’ll need to read it again.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:45 am

Fishnut wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:53 pm
This is an excellent piece that I urge everyone to read. As I know you won't, I'll try and pick out some choice quotes, though please know the bits I'm leaving unpicked are just as insightful, if not more so. The piece is discussing "the idea that women, those irrational creatures, were ‘getting things out of proportion’."
Thank you for sharing that. You're dead right that it's chock-full of eloquently expressed ideas that need a lot more airing. I'm going back to read it again so that I can more clearly express why women's freedom is so important and just how much work women put into managing men's behaviour and emotions to keep themselves safe.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Aoui » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:24 am

Thanks Fishnut. That was a really good read. I'd never really thought of the freedom vs. safety aspect quite that way before and it was rather enlightening.
Last night I was telling my husband about the video of the cop doing that icky leaning in and touching her on the arm and talking into her ear thing. We were on the couch and I just leaned over and started to do it to him as an example and he nearly jumped out of his skin. I realized that it'd never happened to him before and he was so freaked out that I didn't bother to tell him taht I'd just touched his lower arm instead of every so lightly wrapping my hand around his upper arm, which is thoroughly terrifying because you know they could clamp down at any moment if you don't play your cards just right. In fact you are certain they will, but it'll be in a way that most other people won't notice....cuz the warning is just for you... I also didn't tell him not to jump away. Maybe one guy will get the hint but the next will get very angry and you want to avoid that at all costs. My husband and I talked about how I couldn't remember too many specific examples because they were too numerous to really stick in my brain. The guy who wants to walk you across campus in college to get you home safely....do you go with him or go it alone? Which is safer? If you turn him down will he follow you anyway and if so, is it to protect you or to attack you? The comments, the offers, the remarks, the looks where you know they are undressing your in their minds and that little grin and whatever happened in college when you were drunk, or the things you've overheard that you just immediately put out of your mind cuz boys will be boys and everyone knows that. Oh..and all those old men who made creepy remarks when I was younger. Revolting! They thought it was funny but it made sure you knew where you really stood with them. And the little microagressions about smiling. Honest to f.cking gawd that one will bring me to violence faster than anything. It's so funny how I can't remember too many specific incidents and yet there are so many things I've learned over the years. It took me a long time to actually realize how unsafe I was back then. It was those little things taht taught me over time. Those forgotten lines that tipped me off that I was in a precarious situation. the "Be careful, I could do ..... to you but I'm a good guy" to either threaten or truly out of concern that I wasn't quite clued in yet. Those squeezes on my arms to remind me who was in control. Those things overheard that taught me to be careful. The friends who'd guessed wrong and not gotten away as easily as I had... All those freedoms I didn't have and will never have...and the knowledge that as sh.t as this is...I'm still priviledged. I'm white and from a western background. One of the "good type of immigrants" according to a lot of people I meet. It's sh.t enough as it is but it could be so much worse....and it makes me angry that it is worse for so many....

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:12 am

Aoui wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:24 am
Thanks Fishnut. That was a really good read. I'd never really thought of the freedom vs. safety aspect quite that way before and it was rather enlightening.
Agreed.

As a general point, I've found many of the contributions here far more informative and useful than stuff on msm.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:47 am

Martin Y wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:23 pm
Squeak wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:23 pm
... I'm pretty sure you've been present when similar sh.t happened to your female friends, though you may not have noticed. I'm pretty sure you've heard men joking about these sorts of things and maybe you're such an innocent that you thought they were only jokes. Or maybe you've spent your life keeping your female friends safe and reining in the men around you who make them unsafe. If you have, and you have wisdom to share, please do so.
I feel I have hopelessly little of value to add to this thread but this one thing struck a chord.

Men don't talk about sex.

All necessarily in my experience, and I'm talking about decades past and to be honest the men I know don't talk about football either. Anyway, IME men did not talk about sex in any way that was not completely abstracted from personal experience, and it was a genuine shock to me to learn that women did. (In a minor argument when things were starting to go wrong with a relationship, she bolstered her argument with the reactions of her fellow nurses when she had read my letter out to them. (Yeah, that's how long ago it was. A letter.) I was flabbergasted. I can't now remember the contents, only that I would never in a million years have imagined sharing the similar stuff she had written with anyone, let alone using it to entertain work friends in their coffee break.)

Maybe a bigger surprise was that I had a girlfriend. A theme of my younger life was having no idea how to approach women* and a dread of saying or doing the wrong thing that left me frozen and doing nothing. I believe I'm quoting Billy Connolly: I'm not even going to tell you how old I was when I lost my virginity because you'll all just laugh. So the idea that I might admonish my younger self to pull my friends up when they brag about their inappropriate misbehaviour would probably be met with a request to explain WTF I was talking about.

*I don't mean in work or study. Absolutely no problem at all with friendships. Just anything-more-than-friends.
yup
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:12 am

Aoui wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:24 am
Last night I was telling my husband about the video of the cop doing that icky leaning in and touching her on the arm and talking into her ear thing. We were on the couch and I just leaned over and started to do it to him as an example and he nearly jumped out of his skin. I realized that it'd never happened to him before and he was so freaked out that I didn't bother to tell him taht I'd just touched his lower arm instead of every so lightly wrapping my hand around his upper arm, which is thoroughly terrifying because you know they could clamp down at any moment if you don't play your cards just right.
I love this experiment! I can imagine a lot of men wondering what the issue is but as you have shown so wonderfully, if the tables are turned and they get to experience it first-hand, even in a safe environment, the issues become very quickly apparent.
Aoui wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:24 am
My husband and I talked about how I couldn't remember too many specific examples because they were too numerous to really stick in my brain...It's so funny how I can't remember too many specific incidents and yet there are so many things I've learned over the years.
I just wanted to pick up on this point because I think it's really important. We are so used to this stuff we don't remember it. It's just part of being a woman. We are trained from a very early age to accept that our bodily autonomy will be violated repeatedly and to just brush it off. I just remembered that my first french kiss wasn't consensual. A guy just came up to me one New Years Eve, frenched me then disappeared back into the crowd. I remember tasting cigarettes and beer. But that's just how it goes, it didn't seem the least bit remarkable or noteworthy. I don't think I've ever bothered to tell anyone that before, not because I was ashamed or embarrassed (except for how old I was when it happened!) but because it seemed that to do so would be overreacting. A guy stuck his tongue in my mouth without my permission but complaining would be overreacting! I mean, come on, how f.cked up is that?

We spend our whole lives being gaslighted. Being told that we don't experience what we experience, that we overreact, that we're making too much of a big deal about things, that we're letting our emotions get the better of us. I'm so f.cking fed up of it all.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by mediocrity511 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:55 am

It's definitely the case that it's mostly so unremarkable that individual incidents don't stand out massively.

I can remember being about 14, so my little sister was 12. We used to keep tally of how many blokes honked their horns or catcalled is when we walked along the road to my dad's flat, because it happened so much. I think the record was something like 6 times in a single trip.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:24 pm

I remember the year that Adelaide construction companies realised that catcalling was costing them money. I can't remember why it was, whether it was through fines or bad publicity. But once the bosses started sacking men for catcalls, it stopped almost overnight.

I was in my late teens - prime target years - and it was utterly extraordinary.

My dad worked in the industry then. I might ask and see if he can remember what the incentive was for imposing a modicum of respect on building sites...

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bjn » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:55 pm

I haven't much to add to this thread, but thank you for what you've all contributed.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Grumble » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:13 pm

Squeak wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:24 pm
I remember the year that Adelaide construction companies realised that catcalling was costing them money. I can't remember why it was, whether it was through fines or bad publicity. But once the bosses started sacking men for catcalls, it stopped almost overnight.

I was in my late teens - prime target years - and it was utterly extraordinary.

My dad worked in the industry then. I might ask and see if he can remember what the incentive was for imposing a modicum of respect on building sites...
Was there one summer when you got catcalled and then the next you didn’t? Was it as stark as that?
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:14 pm

I've been "discussing" this on my home town FB page. They're still on the "Not all Men and I'm not one of the problem men" stage.

It feels a bit like the stages of grief - a process it seems you have to go through before acceptance (in this case that thewre's a problem and it's a problem for all of us.

No victim blaming at least. So there's that.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:37 pm

JQH wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:14 pm
I've been "discussing" this on my home town FB page. They're still on the "Not all Men and I'm not one of the problem men" stage.

It feels a bit like the stages of grief - a process it seems you have to go through before acceptance (in this case that thewre's a problem and it's a problem for all of us.

No victim blaming at least. So there's that.
Just to be a pedant (because I really don't belong here otherwise) the five stages of grief are bollocks.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JellyandJackson » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:39 pm

I was discussing this with kids A (nearly 18) and B (15) both girls, last night.

I never knew, and kid A had forgotten until last night, that she’d been slapped on the bum by a boy behind her, whilst going up the stairs at school. This has happened twice. She thinks she was probably about 15 and the boy 14 maybe. Thankfully she doesn’t remember being particularly upset by it, in fact she’d forgotten all about it.

Kid B was telling me about a lovely boy O, who tends to hang out with the girls. As he walked from one class to another with 2 girls and another boy, 2 boys went past and asked if he wanted any oxygen, as he was drowning in p.ssy.

Today, kid B’s PE teacher told them not to put their stuff away, which would put them in close proximity to the boys, so the “boys don’t get excited”.

I am pretty much in despair.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:40 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:37 pm
JQH wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:14 pm
I've been "discussing" this on my home town FB page. They're still on the "Not all Men and I'm not one of the problem men" stage.

It feels a bit like the stages of grief - a process it seems you have to go through before acceptance (in this case that thewre's a problem and it's a problem for all of us.

No victim blaming at least. So there's that.
Just to be a pedant (because I really don't belong here otherwise) the five stages of grief are bollocks.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:25 pm

Would anyone object to the discussion surrounding Sarah Everard/the vigil/protest and related matters being split to another thread? It seems like there are various topics being discussed that deserve attention in their own right so the mods think it might be worth having separate threads.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:30 pm

discovolante wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:25 pm
Would anyone object to the discussion surrounding Sarah Everard/the vigil/protest and related matters being split to another thread? It seems like there are various topics being discussed that deserve attention in their own right so the mods think it might be worth having separate threads.
Makes sense to me :)
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Sciolus » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:38 pm

Boris Johnson wrote:I think the fundamental issue that we have to address as a country, and as a society and as a government is that ... women in particular must feel that when they make serious complaints about violence, about assault, that they are properly heard.

We are going to make sure that that happens.
Really, Prime Minister? That's the fundamental issue? Can you think of even one issue that is more fundamental than that? Such as, perhaps, that fact that women still have cause to make such complaints?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:52 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:13 pm
Squeak wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:24 pm
I remember the year that Adelaide construction companies realised that catcalling was costing them money. I can't remember why it was, whether it was through fines or bad publicity. But once the bosses started sacking men for catcalls, it stopped almost overnight.

I was in my late teens - prime target years - and it was utterly extraordinary.

My dad worked in the industry then. I might ask and see if he can remember what the incentive was for imposing a modicum of respect on building sites...
Was there one summer when you got catcalled and then the next you didn’t? Was it as stark as that?
I think it stopped within about a month or so. It went from every building site, every time (and I commuted through the city, so several times on my way to and from school, every day) to just, peace.

At the time, I was naive enough to think the yells were a kind of compliment but when it stopped, I realised how nice it was to not have it happen.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:00 pm

discovolante wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:25 pm
Would anyone object to the discussion surrounding Sarah Everard/the vigil/protest and related matters being split to another thread? It seems like there are various topics being discussed that deserve attention in their own right so the mods think it might be worth having separate threads.
Done, I think. As usual there are a few posts that are a bit either/or which I've mostly left, but if I've made any obvious mistakes feel free to PM me.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by mediocrity511 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:03 pm

The comment about PE has brought back a memory for me. I had violin lessons at secondary school with a teacher who was creepy, always just stopped short of doing anything you could actually pin down, but he was too touchy and would stand far too close behind you.

We used to get music lessons scheduled for in PE time, so we didnt miss subjects we'd be taking exams in. PE was annoyed by this and started forcing girls to attend their violin lessons in their PE kits (very short shorts and a t shirt). I can remember asking her not to make me get changed and other girls too. Saying that we were uncomfortable having to wear so little for our violin lessons. It was our fault for letting our lessons be scheduled during PE time.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:24 am

Meanwhile, in Australia, there was a protest rally calling for proper responses to a 12 month old report on sexual discrimination and harassment in workplaces, which got a lot of extra oxygen because of the recent revelations of a string of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment claims involving our Attorney General, politicians from both major parties, and parliamentary staffers. The rally got this delightful response from our Prime Minister: we know Australia is a great country because we're not shooting the protesters.

Yay Australia. We will not investigate whether the nation's senior law officer raped a girl when he was a teenager. We will call a young female staffer who gets raped at work "a lying cow", and not answer questions about how much help her alleged rapist got in finding a new job, and we won't bother implementing measures to stop women being harassed and discriminated against at work. But at least we don't gun down women when they peacefully demonstrate outside parliament.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Grumble » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:24 am

Squeak wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:24 am
Meanwhile, in Australia, there was a protest rally calling for proper responses to a 12 month old report on sexual discrimination and harassment in workplaces, which got a lot of extra oxygen because of the recent revelations of a string of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment claims involving our Attorney General, politicians from both major parties, and parliamentary staffers. The rally got this delightful response from our Prime Minister: we know Australia is a great country because we're not shooting the protesters.

Yay Australia. We will not investigate whether the nation's senior law officer raped a girl when he was a teenager. We will call a young female staffer who gets raped at work "a lying cow", and not answer questions about how much help her alleged rapist got in finding a new job, and we won't bother implementing measures to stop women being harassed and discriminated against at work. But at least we don't gun down women when they peacefully demonstrate outside parliament.
Politicians have always liked to address the fact of rather than the reasons for a protest, it’s such b.llsh.t.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:13 am

Well, wow, problem solved. Police in bars, more street lighting and CCTV and just like that, women will be free to go about their lives however they wish and with no fear.

I'm still trying to work out how that will help women going for a run, or just walking down the street, in daylight. But I'm sure that's just me being stupid.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by mediocrity511 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:25 am

bagpuss wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:13 am
Well, wow, problem solved. Police in bars, more street lighting and CCTV and just like that, women will be free to go about their lives however they wish and with no fear.

I'm still trying to work out how that will help women going for a run, or just walking down the street, in daylight. But I'm sure that's just me being stupid.
I'm struggling to know how it will even help women in bars, given how most stuff isn't totally visible to someone observing! It won't even deter offenders, because the police don't be visible. At best, it will lead to a few extra prosecutions, but it's real tip of the iceberg stuff.

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