Male violence and harassment of women

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plodder
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by plodder » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:01 pm
In an age where superhero films and sitcoms and music lyrics are heavily scrutinised over how they portray women, p.rn clearly stands out as an area where damaging portrayals are highly prevalent, which I think is worth challenging for its own sake. p.rn is mainstream enough to be part of society's culture, even if we don't talk about the latest warehouse orgy romp as much as the new Ghostbusters or whatever.

I remember reading an argument about MMR vaccines, with folk responding to antivaxxers by saying that as we'd gone from a time where nobody got MMR to a time when everybody had it, we'd expect any negative effects to be easily detectable. The same thing has happened with p.rn - kids in the old days used to have to scour local hedgerows to find pictures of boobs, whereas now everyone can access pretty much anything all the time, and it's to a certain extent unavoidable.

But I don't know if crime rates is the obvious place to start with cultural artefacts. How do women feel about how women are portrayed? How are they treated during consensual sex? During non-sexual encounters (probably especially online ones, where it's much easier to expose yourself to somebody without getting caught)? If basically all men are regularly looking at content many women find problematic, we've got problems whether or not anything illegal happens.
I agree, especially with the last bit, which is obviously tricky. I mean, dick pics are new, right? Any stats on them?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:46 pm

I wonder how much the Incel phenomenon is the result of men who are unable to relate to real women because they've developed warped perceptions from internet p.rnography?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by plodder » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:49 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:27 pm
If Eastenders explored racism, it would do it with some depth, showing the motivations of the perpetrator and the impact on the victims. Maybe the overt racism in p.rnography has no impact. No effect would be surprising, to me at least, but even so it's pretty shocking how lefty p.rnography apologists force themselves to ignore a level of racism that has no place in 2021 society. Is the answer really: "Meh, doesn't have a discernable impact, it's all fine"?

I can't see how p.rnography can be considered more closely aligned to other forms of entertainment than we'd expect. We would find racism on TV or the movies to be abhorent, yet casually accept it in p.rnography. I think it's pretty clear that different standards are applied.

The other day there was someone on the radio talking about the rapiness of Connery's Bond in the 1960s - in one movie (Thunderball I think it was) he manipulates a woman to have sex with him or he'd get her fired. This was deemed unacceptable to today's audiences and an indicator of how far we've improved. And yet this exact scenario is available to all, a couple of clicks away from here, presented with casual acceptance and unremarked on. It's so normalised it's unremarkable on one part of the internet, yet considered beyond the pale if you watch a Bond movie on another part of the internet.
Yes, agreed - my bad for the clumsy. Of course stuff is acceptable in p.rn that isn't in Eastenders (or elsewhere in polite society). I think your original point was that p.rn is a significant factor in driving male violence and I'm still not sure that's the case - any more than other forms of problematic media. I was being glib with Eastenders.

I'm not apologising for p.rn, but I am kind of surprised how its sudden and complete prevalence hasn't turned us all into Bonobo Chimps. I suspect for most men it's compartmentalised well and truly into fantasies which don't escape into the real world, and the inability to separate the two is potentially the main problem (ie sense of entitlement, arrogance etc which has deeper cultural roots).

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:58 pm

It might also be that men are m.st.rbating more often and this makes them less sexually desperate and pushy. Could just be a hormonal self-regulation thing.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by lpm » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:04 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:49 pm
I think your original point was that p.rn is a significant factor in driving male violence and I'm still not sure that's the case - any more than other forms of problematic media.
The original point was in response to the hypothesis that dodgy Whatsapp groups led to the normalisation/endorsement of predatory behaviour by one particular individual. Might be true but I was pointing out there was a far more likely route to normalisation/endorsement. Something that pretty obviously should be questioned yet which some people steadfastly refuse to consider.

There something bizarre going on in progressive politics, as evidenced by this forum, a hyper sensitivity to some issues combined with deliberate blind-eyeing towards other much more significant issues. Some of the people who have spoken at great length on this thread about male violence and harassment have also jumped to praising MindGeek, one of the worst capitalist scum companies out there, whenever there's a chance that p.rnography might be criticised. People who literally get out telescopes to search for racism also have infinite capacity to ignore the most ubiquitous form of racism on the internet. Men who like to abuse women are condemned, but if you listen to this forum men who purchase consent to abuse are untouchable. The Labour Party, who we should be able to look to for leadership in the fight against male violence is instead trapped in the endless labyrinth of cultural squabbles.

Fundamentally Sheldrake is right about how ensnared we all are in this circle of righteous thought where we censor out anything that disturbs our cosy beliefs. The right wing is doing the same, trapping itself into meaningless slogans or pretending to be afraid of an immigrant in a dinghy or getting itself agitated about a traffic jam on the M25. It's all them vs us. Perspective thrown away. It's all incredibly depressing.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:24 pm

Part of the issue might be that lots of men, at some point, will have used p.rnography as a masturbatory aid. I'm not suggesting men here all still do that, but I'm sure most will have at some point in their lives. It's just very widespread. Guys, there's no need to come forward and insist that you personally never do that. I'm sure you, personally, didn't. But you'd be in a minority.

Having not turned into rapists themselves, or engaged in misogynistic banter as adult men, or become customers of prostitutes, they will probably be a bit naturally skeptical about the idea that it was the p.rnography that caused other men to do these things. A bit like the vast numbers of people who smoked marijuana at university, then gave it up afterwards and suffered no long term problems holding down a job etc.. are a bit personally incredulous when it's suggested that marijuana use can lead to mental health problems or act as a gateway to harder drugs. They could certainly be wrong about this, in the same way that somebody who drives and hasn't had a car crash would be wrong to think that driving does not cause car crashes.

How right-of centre people* actually behave amongst people who share their views is probably a topic for a whole other thread. (* obv many different tribes here, some of which I've had no real contact with).

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by plodder » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm

Sure, there are biases, especially around taboo or sensitive subjects, and especially around p.rn where lpm’s comments around racism (and human slavery, and class, and and and) are spot on. There are also (for what they’re worth) stats, which struggle to show that p.rn has a measurable impact, even when p.rn use goes from 0 to infinity over the course of a generation. You’d think we’d see pre and post-p.rn teens - maybe we could - but the researchers appear to have figured out how to spot them.

For whatever reason, Instagram appears to be more malign. Or there may just be better research out there, or this may just demonstrate the limits of social science.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:56 pm

I suspect there are too many confounding variables to be sure. e.g. as internet p.rnography has spread, so has CCTV surveillance and the ubiquity and accuracy of DNA forensic techniques. It might be that men are getting crazier ideas about how to relate to women, but are also much more deterred from acting out in a criminal way because they perceive their chances of getting caught are way up.

It's only anecdotal but female friends who use online dating apps report massive numbers of men who don't act in a way that breaches criminal law, but who are very blatant and direct about only looking for a one-night stand rather than a relationship. That doesn't sound like the social norms of the 1950s, but so many things have changed in society how could we measure the impact of p.rn here? It could just be the fact that the internet dating medium is much more impersonal and men of the 1950s, given access to these media, would've behaved in exactly the same way. Jimmy Saville got away with sexually assaulting teenage girls in closeup on prime time TV without anybody batting an eyelid back in the 70s.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by plodder » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:30 pm

For p.rn c.1990 is the boundary between it being for enthusiasts who needed to make an effort (especially violent p.rn which I’m assuming was underground and particularly seedy) and it being universally available to everyone who can unlock safe search on their browsers. Anyway, I’ve said plenty here already, apologies for the derail.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by lpm » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:39 pm

No way was it 1990. It would have taken half an hour on dial up to get a picture of a naked lady. Even in 2000 few people had broadband and video wasn't a thing. Maybe 2005 casual viewing started to move from pictures to movie clips. MindGeek itself wasn't founded till 2004.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 pm

2000 probably reasonable - I had broadband provided as part of my rent in a college apartment by then. Students and affluent 'tech early adopters' in big cities probably had broadband then. I had it in a 3 bed semi in a small market town by 2002.

Rapes reported to the police started to increase fairly steeply in England & Wales around 2012 for some reason
Image

I also saw stats somewhere for the whole UK going back to 1985 that just showed steady increase until around 2012 before the line turns upwards, but I can't find the link any more.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 pm

plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm
For whatever reason, Instagram appears to be more malign. Or there may just be better research out there, or this may just demonstrate the limits of social science.
This is probably a derail, apologies and we can split it if needs be.

But I wonder if the difference with p.rn is because it isn't really a social form of media consumption. People may watch Netflix alone in the dark but they talk about it with their friends. Most people I suspect delete their browser history after left-handed browsing.

Similarly, the airbrushed photos selected for Instagram are supposed to be our friends, or people we can relate to. Whereas I don't think many people follow p.rn to enjoy characters' story arks.

There might be some built-in distancing from the content. I'd describe viewing as furtive, goal-oriented and somewhat embarrassing. I assume it's a very price-sensitive industry so they wouldn't include plots if nobody watched them (they must be shelling out loads for those writing teams), but perhaps they're less socially influential than equal periods of TV/film, music, advertising, social media scrolling, etc etc.

I know they have a comment section, but I don't know why.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by plodder » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:08 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm
For whatever reason, Instagram appears to be more malign. Or there may just be better research out there, or this may just demonstrate the limits of social science.
This is probably a derail, apologies and we can split it if needs be.

But I wonder if the difference with p.rn is because it isn't really a social form of media consumption. People may watch Netflix alone in the dark but they talk about it with their friends. Most people I suspect delete their browser history after left-handed browsing.

Similarly, the airbrushed photos selected for Instagram are supposed to be our friends, or people we can relate to. Whereas I don't think many people follow p.rn to enjoy characters' story arks.

There might be some built-in distancing from the content. I'd describe viewing as furtive, goal-oriented and somewhat embarrassing. I assume it's a very price-sensitive industry so they wouldn't include plots if nobody watched them (they must be shelling out loads for those writing teams), but perhaps they're less socially influential than equal periods of TV/film, music, advertising, social media scrolling, etc etc.

I know they have a comment section, but I don't know why.
lizard brain stuff. maybe, yeah.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by plodder » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:10 am

lpm wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:39 pm
No way was it 1990. It would have taken half an hour on dial up to get a picture of a naked lady. Even in 2000 few people had broadband and video wasn't a thing. Maybe 2005 casual viewing started to move from pictures to movie clips. MindGeek itself wasn't founded till 2004.
Right, but that was still half an hour faster than never plucking up the courage to go to the newsagents to buy Razzle.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:25 am

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 pm
2000 probably reasonable - I had broadband provided as part of my rent in a college apartment by then. Students and affluent 'tech early adopters' in big cities probably had broadband then. I had it in a 3 bed semi in a small market town by 2002.

Rapes reported to the police started to increase fairly steeply in England & Wales around 2012 for some reason
Image

I also saw stats somewhere for the whole UK going back to 1985 that just showed steady increase until around 2012 before the line turns upwards, but I can't find the link any more.
Its not a good idea to make assumptions about prevalence from statistics on sexual offences reported to the police. Any changes over time could be due to differences in victims' willingness to make a report.

Its much better to use anonymous surveys, and they pick up much greater numbers of victims than than formally report crimes to the police.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:36 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:25 am

Its not a good idea to make assumptions about prevalence from statistics on sexual offences reported to the police. Any changes over time could be due to differences in victims' willingness to make a report.
Yes, they certainly could. Similar issues with data on conviction rates. Note I qualified the noticed uptick with 'for some reason'.
Its much better to use anonymous surveys, and they pick up much greater numbers of victims than than formally report crimes to the police.
There are problems with those too, but when I looked I couldn't find one that had data going back 20 years or more.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:56 am

sheldrake wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:36 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:25 am

Its not a good idea to make assumptions about prevalence from statistics on sexual offences reported to the police. Any changes over time could be due to differences in victims' willingness to make a report.
Yes, they certainly could. Similar issues with data on conviction rates. Note I qualified the noticed uptick with 'for some reason'.
Its much better to use anonymous surveys, and they pick up much greater numbers of victims than than formally report crimes to the police.
There are problems with those too, but when I looked I couldn't find one that had data going back 20 years or more.
Yes, the best long term data could probably be found here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ndandwales

Which provides statistics from 2005 onwards.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:23 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:56 am
sheldrake wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:36 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:25 am

Its not a good idea to make assumptions about prevalence from statistics on sexual offences reported to the police. Any changes over time could be due to differences in victims' willingness to make a report.
Yes, they certainly could. Similar issues with data on conviction rates. Note I qualified the noticed uptick with 'for some reason'.
Its much better to use anonymous surveys, and they pick up much greater numbers of victims than than formally report crimes to the police.
There are problems with those too, but when I looked I couldn't find one that had data going back 20 years or more.
Yes, the best long term data could probably be found here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ndandwales

Which provides statistics from 2005 onwards.
Crime Survey since 2005 doesn't seem to show an upward trend
Screen Shot 2021-10-12 at 10.03.33 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-10-12 at 10.03.33 AM.png (66.1 KiB) Viewed 184 times

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:51 am

sheldrake wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:24 pm
Part of the issue might be that lots of men, at some point, will have used p.rnography as a masturbatory aid.
I believe that p.rn is now a sex manual instruction and it's becoming increasingly violent, especially for teenagers embarking on sex for the first time. Most of it is strangling, and anal now anyway. That's a teenager's introduction to sex and middle aged men are watching it.

I don't watch p.rn as a masturbatory aid and I'm 60. I use my imagination.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Stephanie » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:08 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm
For whatever reason, Instagram appears to be more malign. Or there may just be better research out there, or this may just demonstrate the limits of social science.
This is probably a derail, apologies and we can split it if needs be.

But I wonder if the difference with p.rn is because it isn't really a social form of media consumption. People may watch Netflix alone in the dark but they talk about it with their friends. Most people I suspect delete their browser history after left-handed browsing.

Similarly, the airbrushed photos selected for Instagram are supposed to be our friends, or people we can relate to. Whereas I don't think many people follow p.rn to enjoy characters' story arks.

There might be some built-in distancing from the content. I'd describe viewing as furtive, goal-oriented and somewhat embarrassing. I assume it's a very price-sensitive industry so they wouldn't include plots if nobody watched them (they must be shelling out loads for those writing teams), but perhaps they're less socially influential than equal periods of TV/film, music, advertising, social media scrolling, etc etc.

I know they have a comment section, but I don't know why.
is the comments section like "yeah, i nutted at 1m4s" ?
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:42 pm

Prediction; there are going to be more comments from people who never watch p.rn who can tell you all about it.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:51 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:08 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 pm
plodder wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:43 pm
For whatever reason, Instagram appears to be more malign. Or there may just be better research out there, or this may just demonstrate the limits of social science.
This is probably a derail, apologies and we can split it if needs be.

But I wonder if the difference with p.rn is because it isn't really a social form of media consumption. People may watch Netflix alone in the dark but they talk about it with their friends. Most people I suspect delete their browser history after left-handed browsing.

Similarly, the airbrushed photos selected for Instagram are supposed to be our friends, or people we can relate to. Whereas I don't think many people follow p.rn to enjoy characters' story arks.

There might be some built-in distancing from the content. I'd describe viewing as furtive, goal-oriented and somewhat embarrassing. I assume it's a very price-sensitive industry so they wouldn't include plots if nobody watched them (they must be shelling out loads for those writing teams), but perhaps they're less socially influential than equal periods of TV/film, music, advertising, social media scrolling, etc etc.

I know they have a comment section, but I don't know why.
is the comments section like "yeah, i nutted at 1m4s" ?
Lol, I don't generally venture below the line lol, but reddit seems to enjoy finding weird ones (obv very nsfw!) https://www.reddit.com/r/PornhubComments/
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:02 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:42 pm
Prediction; there are going to be more comments from people who never watch p.rn who can tell you all about it.
I have watched p.rn. LOL!

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 pm

So LOL on a thread about male violence and harassment of women. I bet the LOLs were lasting for weeks on this one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58883628

Wayne Couzens exposed himself to Emma B in 2008. Was he using her as a masturbatory aid?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:13 pm

People like Wayne Couzens are mercifully very rare. I think an interesting angle to investigate would be whether this was linked to his steroid use because steroid use is less common (and easier to check) than whether or not a person views p.rnography.

This small study does suggest a link between exaggerated sexual behaviours and steroid use

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4646078/

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