Male violence and harassment of women

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sheldrake
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:39 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:27 pm
50 shades of Gray was one of the most popular works of p.rnography of all time, written by a woman, largely purchased by women and focussing on the sub-dom relationship between a submissive woman and a controlling man.

Is this the result of women internalizing their oppression and should be considered 'harmful', or is it something else?
I'm sure you are well able to answer that question yourself.
My view is that I can't assume millions of women all have the same motives and drives for what they choose to do. I know some people (male and female) were very angry about the popularity of this work, but the millions of women who paid for it presumably saw it as a legitimate recreational sex fantasy.

I'm asking because I'd like others' view.
My opinion and not an answer is that you've skipped Sally Rooney's Normal People, which is much more up to date. 50 shades is so last decade.
I have skipped it, but only because I've got an enormous stack of unread books to work through (C.S. Lewis 'Till We Have Faces' next). I'm also a bit put off by her BDS posturing.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:41 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:47 pm
Martin_B wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:09 pm
I don't think there could be any ethical p.rn if it features children. Even p.rn featuring actors over 16/18, if they are acting as underage characters, surely can't be 'ethical' at all? It would be depicting an illegal activity.
Older actors playing underage is ethically worrying yes, but a large proportion of mainstream films depict illegal activity. The difference, I suppose, is that you're not intended to think (most of) the murders etc are okay, but you are supposed to be entertained. Thrillers are intended to thrill.

I had to give up on Luther, for example. I just couldn't bear the expectation that each episode would be another young woman being kidnapped, tortured, raped and murdered before we could get to the detective story.
I gave up on Luther as well for this reason.

I dislike the depiction of the murder of women for entertainment

However, the murder of women has to be researched for reasons that will make women and girls feel safer in a world they populated and inhabit.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:28 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:44 am
purplehaze wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm
To think that violent p.rn is an escalation due to the onset of the internet is nonsense. It's always been there.
Violent p.rn has always been around. But an important difference is that 40-50 years ago - teenagers were much less likely to encounter it.

Back then a teenager might find a magazine, discarded or belonging to an older male relative. Or even a VHS. But these typically didn't contain some of the things they can now access with a click, on their phones.
And men wanting to view p.rn had to go to a seedy "Adult Bookshop" rather than click the mouse buttons a few times. It's certainly a lot easier to access than it used to be.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:19 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:36 pm
Have we had this utter f.cking dickhead yet?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-y ... e-58762029
"So women, first of all, need to be streetwise about when they can be arrested and when they can't be arrested. She should never have been arrested and submitted to that," he said.

"Perhaps women need to consider in terms of the legal process, to just learn a bit about that legal process".
He's resigned.

Only took 2 weeks, which is surprisingly quick considering normally they manage to hold onto their jobs.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Gfamily » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:56 pm

Another one sacked for inappropriate behaviour. Good to see the strictest standards being applied.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Grumble » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:56 pm
Another one sacked for inappropriate behaviour. Good to see the strictest standards being applied.
If you’re just a constable at the age of 51 you might not be the sharpest tool in the box. That’s the kind of story that makes you think they wanted to sack him for something. Obviously they wouldn’t want to sack someone for anything as trivial as sexual harassment though.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by sheldrake » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:42 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 pm


If you’re just a constable at the age of 51 you might not be the sharpest tool in the box. That’s the kind of story that makes you think they wanted to sack him for something. Obviously they wouldn’t want to sack someone for anything as trivial as sexual harassment though.
Probably were looking for a reason to get rid of him as you say, but he'd only been in the police since 2017 so his rank might not be a sign of low ability (you can join the police in your late 40s, especially if you've got a background in another uniformed service).

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Boustrophedon » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:56 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:56 pm
Another one sacked for inappropriate behaviour. Good to see the strictest standards being applied.
If you’re just a constable at the age of 51 you might not be the sharpest tool in the box. That’s the kind of story that makes you think they wanted to sack him for something. Obviously they wouldn’t want to sack someone for anything as trivial as sexual harassment though.
There are fewer in the rank above and even fewer in the rank above that. If you think about the Peter principal, there are bound to be people who decide that the rank above requires skills and responsibilities that you just don't want.
Just because someone does not wat to be of a higher rank does not mean that there was something wrong with them.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:01 am

There have been some requests in this topic, and others directly to the Mods, to move the discussion on p.rnography and male violence to a separate topic.

We are normally happy to respond to requests to move discussions to new threads. However, I'm not certain in this case. On one hand the subject appears relevant to male violence and harassment of women, so its not an obvious derail. On the other, the discussion appears to have its own dynamic among a group of forum members, so perhaps it would be better if it had its own topic.

So, are there any objections to the discussion being moved to a new thread?


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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by lpm » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:57 am

Strong objections. It would be better if the material about one specific murder was moved to a separate thread. There are inevitably distortions that occur in these threads. For example, some people don't like to talk about relevant stuff that makes them uncomfortable, such as p.rnography. Or the thread focuses on a rare but newsworthy event and skips over the reality that most male violence occurs inside the home.

Ultimately this topic is about the relationships between men and women, which are mostly in the home, partly in the workplace and partly in public places. There's a tendency to congregate around an easy thing that we all unanimously condemn - violence/harassment by strangers in the street - and to shy away from more challenging issues such as domestic abuse.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by lpm » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:13 am

I think the two posts below from page one sum it up well. This thread should be about challenging men and conventional male behaviour and the male norms that are currently prevalent in society, as Tessa and Fishnut called for at the beginning.
Fishnut wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:24 am
Tessa K wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:03 am
We shouldn't need to be talking about intervention, we should be talking about prevention. Women have been talking about this for decades and not much has changed so what would help is men talking to each other, educating their male family members and friends about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. It's not just the extremes of rape and murder, it's the everyday harrassment, the constant low-level stuff, even down to the level of 'just being friendly', saying hello to a woman in the street as you pass by. These conversations may be difficult but it's the only way things will change rather than putting the onus on women.

This man is interesting and on the right track https://twitter.com/Hemmch/status/1370436894857789464

There's some discussion in various places about men being 'chivalrous'. This is a complete misunderstanding of what chivalry was and frames women as helpless victims rather than putting the focus on male aggressors. (https://going-medieval.com/2017/12/07/t ... is-but-ok/).

The suggestions of a male curfew are silly but entirely understandable.
This

I've been thinking of it as analogous to our response to terrorism. If you're relying on airport security to stop a terrorist attack then you've left it far too late, people are going to get hurt regardless, it just might not be who the terrorists intended. You need to stop them getting to the airport, and preferably stop them from getting radicalised into terrorism in the first place. It's less dramatic than a load of armed security standing around a guy with a bomb but it's a hell of a lot more effective.

We've seen women time and again bear their souls and share their worst experiences to try and get men to see that degradation, harassment, abuse and assault, is a part of every woman's life. What I haven't seen is men stand up and admit that they have been the perpetrators. I've seen lots of hand-wringing from men wanting to show they're "not like that"; so many in fact that you'd get the impression it's only a very prolific few causing all this harm. Well, it's not. How many of the men here have ever made a misogynistic joke or a dehumanising comment about a woman? How many have laughed when their mates did the same? How many of you have downplayed women's experiences and said that you've not seen anything like that so it can't be that bad? How many of you have defended a friend when hearing that they overstepped the line with a woman? How many of you have excused that behaviour by saying he's harmless really or a nice guy?

I want men to search in their memories honestly and see all the times they missed the first time around where they made women feel uncomfortable, judged simply for being a woman, unsafe simply for being a woman. Because it may be #notallmen but it's a hell of a lot more than are currently willing to admit it.

So, I have a challenge to the men here. Describe a time when you were sh.t to a woman or women. Bear your soul in the same way we've been forced to every f.cking time there's a story that captures public attention about the sh.t women face just for trying to live our lives. It's hard, it's embarrassing, it opens you up to all sorts of questions about why you did what you did, but if you really care about doing something to help then examining your own actions is the best place to start.

And if you can't, then ask yourself why you expect us to do it in order for you to be convinced that the problem is as big as it is.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:26 am

Victims of alleged domestic abuse are seeing their cases dropped at a rapidly increasing rate, according to data obtained by the BBC.

Police have six months to charge common assault cases, including domestic abuse, from when the alleged incident took place.

Campaigners say this is unfair because of the complex nature of many cases.

Figures show 3,763 cases were dropped for this reason in the past year, compared with 1,451 four years earlier.

Across the past five years, 12,982 cases have been ended because of the six-month limit being passed.
CAVEAT: The data was not broken down by gender, and covers both men and women.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58910802

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:06 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:01 am
There have been some requests in this topic, and others directly to the Mods, to move the discussion on p.rnography and male violence to a separate topic.

We are normally happy to respond to requests to move discussions to new threads. However, I'm not certain in this case. On one hand the subject appears relevant to male violence and harassment of women, so its not an obvious derail. On the other, the discussion appears to have its own dynamic among a group of forum members, so perhaps it would be better if it had its own topic.

So, are there any objections to the discussion being moved to a new thread?
It's not an obvious derail but my concern was more that familiar arguments were being replayed. It's certainly relevant to the main topic but I wouldn't want to see the thread become solely about p.rn, going over familiar ground.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:10 am

Also, this is a good video from Scotland - Don't Be That Guy.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/dont-be-th ... ts-men?top

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:27 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:01 am
There have been some requests in this topic, and others directly to the Mods, to move the discussion on p.rnography and male violence to a separate topic.

We are normally happy to respond to requests to move discussions to new threads. However, I'm not certain in this case. On one hand the subject appears relevant to male violence and harassment of women, so its not an obvious derail. On the other, the discussion appears to have its own dynamic among a group of forum members, so perhaps it would be better if it had its own topic.

So, are there any objections to the discussion being moved to a new thread?
I would like it to be a separate thread, not because I don't think it's relevant - it is - but because it's a huge topic in itself and I think this thread is already covering so much ground that adding even more areas to it has the risk of making this the dumping ground for anything relating to women/feminism. It's a broad topic, we can have more than one thread on it.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:42 am

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:27 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:01 am
There have been some requests in this topic, and others directly to the Mods, to move the discussion on p.rnography and male violence to a separate topic.

We are normally happy to respond to requests to move discussions to new threads. However, I'm not certain in this case. On one hand the subject appears relevant to male violence and harassment of women, so its not an obvious derail. On the other, the discussion appears to have its own dynamic among a group of forum members, so perhaps it would be better if it had its own topic.

So, are there any objections to the discussion being moved to a new thread?
I would like it to be a separate thread, not because I don't think it's relevant - it is - but because it's a huge topic in itself and I think this thread is already covering so much ground that adding even more areas to it has the risk of making this the dumping ground for anything relating to women/feminism. It's a broad topic, we can have more than one thread on it.
Agreed. There's a risk that more directly relevant posts will get lost.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:08 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:10 am
Also, this is a good video from Scotland - Don't Be That Guy.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/dont-be-th ... ts-men?top
It is good. Thanks for posting it.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:33 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:06 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:01 am
There have been some requests in this topic, and others directly to the Mods, to move the discussion on p.rnography and male violence to a separate topic.

We are normally happy to respond to requests to move discussions to new threads. However, I'm not certain in this case. On one hand the subject appears relevant to male violence and harassment of women, so its not an obvious derail. On the other, the discussion appears to have its own dynamic among a group of forum members, so perhaps it would be better if it had its own topic.

So, are there any objections to the discussion being moved to a new thread?
It's not an obvious derail but my concern was more that familiar arguments were being replayed. It's certainly relevant to the main topic but I wouldn't want to see the thread become solely about p.rn, going over familiar ground.
But isn't the familiar ground violence against women? No one is denying that violent p.rn exists. No one is denying that violence against women has been happening for centuries.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:39 pm

lpm wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:57 am
Strong objections. It would be better if the material about one specific murder was moved to a separate thread. There are inevitably distortions that occur in these threads. For example, some people don't like to talk about relevant stuff that makes them uncomfortable, such as p.rnography. Or the thread focuses on a rare but newsworthy event and skips over the reality that most male violence occurs inside the home.

Ultimately this topic is about the relationships between men and women, which are mostly in the home, partly in the workplace and partly in public places. There's a tendency to congregate around an easy thing that we all unanimously condemn - violence/harassment by strangers in the street - and to shy away from more challenging issues such as domestic abuse.
I agree. It's an uncomfortable subject to discuss but all aspects of male violence should be included especially those in the home environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-violence

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm

Plus male violence and harassment of women is replayed several times an hour, weekly, monthly, yearly.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:07 pm

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/uk-wo ... 56-6063782

Is this the same as the previous one?

I'm uneasy about his anonymity being protected for life to protect his mental health.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:19 pm

jimbob wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:07 pm
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/uk-wo ... 56-6063782

Is this the same as the previous one?

I'm uneasy about his anonymity being protected for life to protect his mental health.
What previous one?

It could be misinterpreted to protect his family.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm

How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by snoozeofreason » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:24 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:26 am
Victims of alleged domestic abuse are seeing their cases dropped at a rapidly increasing rate, according to data obtained by the BBC.

Police have six months to charge common assault cases, including domestic abuse, from when the alleged incident took place.

Campaigners say this is unfair because of the complex nature of many cases.

Figures show 3,763 cases were dropped for this reason in the past year, compared with 1,451 four years earlier.

Across the past five years, 12,982 cases have been ended because of the six-month limit being passed.
CAVEAT: The data was not broken down by gender, and covers both men and women.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58910802
As is generally the case with the criminal law, the media are making a poor job of explaining this problem, and politicians are making a poor job of tackling it. The six month limit applies to all "summary" offences - that is to say lesser offences that can be dealt with only in the magistrates court. In the context of domestic abuse this is most likely to be offences that fall into the category of Common Assault. Although Common Assault might sound as if it involves people knocking nine bales of hay out of each other, in law it only covers assaults that cause no physical injury, so pushing and shoving would be covered but blows would amount to ABH or GBH, which are triable by jury and for which the six month limit does not apply.

The political response to this has been - as if often is - calls to change the law, specifically calls to abolish the six month limit for some summary offences. Generally when politicians propose headline grabbing "changes" to the criminal law to solve a problem, the proposals are either ineffective, or impossible, or don't actually change the law at all. I suspect that this is the case here. If an offence has produced no physical injury, has taken place in private, and no information about it has been presented to magistrates until six months after the event, then the prospects of a successful prosecution are, I would imagine fairly slim even if the prosecution is allowed to take place. A sensible way to address the problem would be to ensure that, if a prosecution for such an offence is possible, then it is prosecuted swiftly, if the offence forms part of a pattern of coercive control this is investigated (coercive control does not fall under the six month limit) and that where the law cannot provide remedy other courses of action are explored. However all those things costs money, so will not be appealing to the government, and cannot be reduced to easy sound bites, so probably won't attract the attention of opposition politicians either.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:42 pm

purplehaze wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm
How many people replying on this forum have helped a woman escape male violence and been inside a refuge centre.

I'm one.
Good. It's difficult if you are a man I expect.

It would be nice for peppe to reflect on what they can do practically to help but I would imagine what that is will vary from person to person.
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