Male violence and harassment of women

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Fishnut
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:43 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:30 pm
But the reason that I, and I think a lot of men, get slightly terrified by all this is because (a) we want to think of ourselves as good people, (b) good people don't creep out women, (c) I don't know if I creep out women, (d) women would never tell me if I did, they'd just tell each other, (e) I can be socially unaware and useless at learning important social rules, and (f) this behaviour could continue for years without me knowing or figuring out that I'm doing something wrong. And all that time there'd be a hushed conversation about avoiding the creepy guy (me) that I didn't know about. The thought of being a sort of unknowing pariah freaks me out.
I think this is a really important point. I get the fear, and it's totally understandable. It's really hard to reassess yourself and realise that maybe you're not the good and kind person you thought you were. I look back over events in my life and realise that I was unintentionally racist or classist or homophobic, that I was judgemental and bigoted. It's not nice, but I try to learn from those moments and make sure I don't repeat them. It's even harder to accept that for the moments I do remember and cringe at there's surely loads I've forgotten. Moments insignificant for me that still ended up hurting the person on the receiving end. It sucks to have to reassess yourself so critically. But it's vital.
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:30 pm
And that doesn't just apply to being creepy, it applies to a whole host of behaviours that we have. Many male behaviours are learnt amongst peers rather than from parents. Our parents don't see us when we go to school or start going to pubs or clubs or move out to university. The women around us, if they don't feel safe around us, certainly won't be telling us that we're acting like tw.ts, and nor should they have to. For those of us who would like to be good men, we literally need the men around us to tell us that something is wrong or not okay or just a bad idea. So whilst in turn we as men might be afraid of the backlash, by saying something just to one male friend, we could be nipping in the bud behaviours which make life difficult for dozens of women. And, in turn, we need to raise our sons to be the sort of men who will tell their friends to stop being tw.ts. To tell them that staring or standing too close or smiling creepily are all out of bounds. Otherwise we'll never learn.
I don't have anything to say to this, I just thought it was so good it needed repeating.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Aoui » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:55 am

I had a strange thing happen this morning. My husband and I went to drop off our car in for it's big update. We got there and the guy kept making eye contact with both of us. It freaked me out for a minute, but I couldn't figure out why. Then I realized that I am so used to being completely and totally ignored at car dealerships, garages and car parts shops (unless they are trying to sell me a car) that I was not used to them making eye contact and actually giving a sh.t if I understand a damned word that is being said. Even when I'm alone they always mansplained me to death, even when I knew they had no f.cking clue what they were talking about and had to prove it every time. Don't know how many times I had to "prove" that I knew what type of car I drove when I needed a car part or how many times they'd call my dad to check that I knew what I was asking for when he was usually the one who sent me for the damned part and sometimes called ahead to tell them I'd be picking something up. If I got eye contact it was usually followed by checking me up and down and probably a comment at some point too. Ick. But today, even though my husband actually spoke first (not always the case) the guy still acted like I was there. It only took 52 years! Sadly, I still had to ask my husband a few things later because the acoustics in there were terrible and his fancy hearing aides actually filter out the extra noise and my ears are particularly bad at filtering. But, it happened and it's amazing how much of a big thing it feels like to me.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:03 am

Aoui wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:55 am
I had a strange thing happen this morning. My husband and I went to drop off our car in for it's big update. We got there and the guy kept making eye contact with both of us. It freaked me out for a minute, but I couldn't figure out why. Then I realized that I am so used to being completely and totally ignored at car dealerships, garages and car parts shops (unless they are trying to sell me a car) that I was not used to them making eye contact and actually giving a sh.t if I understand a damned word that is being said. Even when I'm alone they always mansplained me to death, even when I knew they had no f.cking clue what they were talking about and had to prove it every time. Don't know how many times I had to "prove" that I knew what type of car I drove when I needed a car part or how many times they'd call my dad to check that I knew what I was asking for when he was usually the one who sent me for the damned part and sometimes called ahead to tell them I'd be picking something up. If I got eye contact it was usually followed by checking me up and down and probably a comment at some point too. Ick. But today, even though my husband actually spoke first (not always the case) the guy still acted like I was there. It only took 52 years! Sadly, I still had to ask my husband a few things later because the acoustics in there were terrible and his fancy hearing aides actually filter out the extra noise and my ears are particularly bad at filtering. But, it happened and it's amazing how much of a big thing it feels like to me.
Heh. I know f.ck all about cars tbf, and have basically given up but I have been doing my damndest to try and understand properly how electric cars work, partly for my own benefit but with an underlying motivation that if I go to buy one or whatever then I might at least be able to counter any efforts to Talk Down To Me.

That said there is a small independent garage that's been going about 18 months that me and Señor von Latè take our car to (and boy have we had to take it a lot), and so far my experiences have been absolutely fine. Hopefully I haven't spoken too soon! That said it's usually one or the other of us that goes rather than together so I haven't been able to test out who gets spoken to most if we go together.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:21 am

discovolante wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:03 am
Aoui wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:55 am
I had a strange thing happen this morning. My husband and I went to drop off our car in for it's big update. We got there and the guy kept making eye contact with both of us. It freaked me out for a minute, but I couldn't figure out why. Then I realized that I am so used to being completely and totally ignored at car dealerships, garages and car parts shops (unless they are trying to sell me a car) that I was not used to them making eye contact and actually giving a sh.t if I understand a damned word that is being said. Even when I'm alone they always mansplained me to death, even when I knew they had no f.cking clue what they were talking about and had to prove it every time. Don't know how many times I had to "prove" that I knew what type of car I drove when I needed a car part or how many times they'd call my dad to check that I knew what I was asking for when he was usually the one who sent me for the damned part and sometimes called ahead to tell them I'd be picking something up. If I got eye contact it was usually followed by checking me up and down and probably a comment at some point too. Ick. But today, even though my husband actually spoke first (not always the case) the guy still acted like I was there. It only took 52 years! Sadly, I still had to ask my husband a few things later because the acoustics in there were terrible and his fancy hearing aides actually filter out the extra noise and my ears are particularly bad at filtering. But, it happened and it's amazing how much of a big thing it feels like to me.
Heh. I know f.ck all about cars tbf, and have basically given up but I have been doing my damndest to try and understand properly how electric cars work, partly for my own benefit but with an underlying motivation that if I go to buy one or whatever then I might at least be able to counter any efforts to Talk Down To Me.

That said there is a small independent garage that's been going about 18 months that me and Señor von Latè take our car to (and boy have we had to take it a lot), and so far my experiences have been absolutely fine. Hopefully I haven't spoken too soon! That said it's usually one or the other of us that goes rather than together so I haven't been able to test out who gets spoken to most if we go together.
I grew up with a car loving father and brother. Dad was an engineer, brother became one. Just for the fun of it they'd buy old cars and spend all their spare time repairing them. I had no interest in things mechanical. Spent my childhood reading books. Early on this was a bit of a disappointment for my dad but he got over it and learned to appreciate the bookish things I've done.

I'm still completely uninterested in cars and get a bit triggered by the looks of confusion from garage men when it becomes obvious that I don't know anything.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:21 am

discovolante wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:03 am
Aoui wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:55 am
I had a strange thing happen this morning. My husband and I went to drop off our car in for it's big update. We got there and the guy kept making eye contact with both of us. It freaked me out for a minute, but I couldn't figure out why. Then I realized that I am so used to being completely and totally ignored at car dealerships, garages and car parts shops (unless they are trying to sell me a car) that I was not used to them making eye contact and actually giving a sh.t if I understand a damned word that is being said. Even when I'm alone they always mansplained me to death, even when I knew they had no f.cking clue what they were talking about and had to prove it every time. Don't know how many times I had to "prove" that I knew what type of car I drove when I needed a car part or how many times they'd call my dad to check that I knew what I was asking for when he was usually the one who sent me for the damned part and sometimes called ahead to tell them I'd be picking something up. If I got eye contact it was usually followed by checking me up and down and probably a comment at some point too. Ick. But today, even though my husband actually spoke first (not always the case) the guy still acted like I was there. It only took 52 years! Sadly, I still had to ask my husband a few things later because the acoustics in there were terrible and his fancy hearing aides actually filter out the extra noise and my ears are particularly bad at filtering. But, it happened and it's amazing how much of a big thing it feels like to me.
Heh. I know f.ck all about cars tbf, and have basically given up but I have been doing my damndest to try and understand properly how electric cars work, partly for my own benefit but with an underlying motivation that if I go to buy one or whatever then I might at least be able to counter any efforts to Talk Down To Me.

That said there is a small independent garage that's been going about 18 months that me and Señor von Latè take our car to (and boy have we had to take it a lot), and so far my experiences have been absolutely fine. Hopefully I haven't spoken too soon! That said it's usually one or the other of us that goes rather than together so I haven't been able to test out who gets spoken to most if we go together.
Funnily enough, while I know only a very little bit about cars and Mr Bagpuss knows plenty, I've found that all of the local garages and dealerships I've been using for the last decade or so, have treated me as an equal human, from the mostly young men on the service desk in the dealership to the old bloke behind the counter at the parts shop round the corner.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:43 am

That's awesome :) I have to admit, I spent several years without a car until fairly recently, so perhaps I'm unfairly going on past experiences. I would have looked younger then too and I've noticed in the past few years I generally get treated a bit more like an adult than a little girl so that might be partly it (although I still have a massive huge enormous chip on my shoulder about the years of being constantly patronised!).
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JellyandJackson » Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:52 am

I wanted to pick up on something nezumi said a few pages back about women learning not to make a fuss, cause trouble etc. Kid B (15) was out skateboarding yesterday, on her own. She passed a group of 6 lads from her year at school, and one of them catcalled “Oi sexy!” None of the other boys called him out. She’s written an articulate, furious email to the head of year, naming the boy and asking the HoY to see if the issue can be tackled in general terms. I support her, but even so I had a twinge last night of “Oh, don’t want to get the kid in trouble”. I’d consider myself to be a stompy feminist, and not backward in coming forward, but that’s how deep this stuff goes.

Interestingly, kid B posted her experience on Snapchat, and a female friend got in touch to say how this lad had had a bet on with his friends, and anyone close enough to hear, that if he flipped his water bottle 4 times and it landed right way up, he’d slap this girl on the arse.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:36 pm

JellyandJackson wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:52 am
I wanted to pick up on something nezumi said a few pages back about women learning not to make a fuss, cause trouble etc. Kid B (15) was out skateboarding yesterday, on her own. She passed a group of 6 lads from her year at school, and one of them catcalled “Oi sexy!” None of the other boys called him out. She’s written an articulate, furious email to the head of year, naming the boy and asking the HoY to see if the issue can be tackled in general terms. I support her, but even so I had a twinge last night of “Oh, don’t want to get the kid in trouble”. I’d consider myself to be a stompy feminist, and not backward in coming forward, but that’s how deep this stuff goes.

Interestingly, kid B posted her experience on Snapchat, and a female friend got in touch to say how this lad had had a bet on with his friends, and anyone close enough to hear, that if he flipped his water bottle 4 times and it landed right way up, he’d slap this girl on the arse.
Well done to Kid B for writing the letter and sending it :D. It gives me hope for the next generation of women.

I'd be really interested to hear what, if anything HoY does. It sounds like that lad had a pattern of behaviour building and it needs to be nipped in the bud asap.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JellyandJackson » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:28 pm

The HoY is great and I have faith in him. Her form tutor, OTOH...
The HoY was happy to let her go do the climate strike a couple of years ago. He’s Northern Irish, tells the kids his granny was shot by the IRA (really) and who was brought up throwing rocks at Catholic kids at age 9, so he knows about childhood formation.
Kid is going to send the email just before they go back, so it’ll be fresh in his mind. I like her style. :D
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Grumble » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:29 pm

JellyandJackson wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:28 pm
The HoY is great and I have faith in him. Her form tutor, OTOH...
The HoY was happy to let her go do the climate strike a couple of years ago. He’s Northern Irish, tells the kids his granny was shot by the IRA (really) and who was brought up throwing rocks at Catholic kids at age 9, so he knows about childhood formation.
Kid is going to send the email just before they go back, so it’ll be fresh in his mind. I like her style. :D
She could set it to send at a later date, or at least that’s a thing in Outlook and probably other email programs.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by nezumi » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:30 pm

JellyandJackson wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:52 am
I wanted to pick up on something nezumi said a few pages back about women learning not to make a fuss, cause trouble etc. Kid B (15) was out skateboarding yesterday, on her own. She passed a group of 6 lads from her year at school, and one of them catcalled “Oi sexy!” None of the other boys called him out. She’s written an articulate, furious email to the head of year, naming the boy and asking the HoY to see if the issue can be tackled in general terms. I support her, but even so I had a twinge last night of “Oh, don’t want to get the kid in trouble”. I’d consider myself to be a stompy feminist, and not backward in coming forward, but that’s how deep this stuff goes.

Interestingly, kid B posted her experience on Snapchat, and a female friend got in touch to say how this lad had had a bet on with his friends, and anyone close enough to hear, that if he flipped his water bottle 4 times and it landed right way up, he’d slap this girl on the arse.
I'm glad she did something about it! I wonder how many of us would have, or actively did, just put our head down and sulk off feeling awful when this has happened. It's like that thing about dropping litter. People are more likely to vandalise, drop litter and generally cause trouble in a place that already looks unkempt.

Kids catcalling and smacking other kids on the arse are the equivalent to the damaged fences the council has just let rot. What was the way the 80's and early 90's litter problem was dealt with? Wasn't it zero tolerance, actively prosecuting even small offences and putting loads of funding into litter picking and adverts? I think that's about right. I hope the outcome of Kid B's email is that the headteacher actively looks at ways to tackle this kind of bullying.

The analogy works the other way to describe the effect on women of this kind of behaviour. If you get catcalled and slapped on the arse, and other associated "small" harassments, and nothing gets done about it and you get (or expect) no support you feel devalued, like the rotten fence, then further vandalism is just expected. You accept it because that's just how men treat you and there's nothing you can do about it. The fix for this is exactly the same: zero tolerance, actively pursuing offenders and placing extra resources into prevention and cleanup. Kid B has done all of these: She didn't tolerate the bullying behaviour, she took active steps to pursue the offender and she has hopefully helped divert resources into dealing with the problem. Kid B already knows something I didn't work out until I was 26.

Kid B probably needs a pocket money raise.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by egbert26 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:30 pm

nezumi wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:37 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:48 pm

Blaming p.rn is a over-simplification, of course.
Definitely true but I bet p.rn doesn't help. The problem with blaming p.rn is that is takes the responsibility away from the parents who should be teaching healthy behaviour and, you know, supervising their kids. How exactly do you go about reversing a couple of decades-worth of declining parenting skills across a society? I wish I knew.

ETA: Actually I know it's more complicated than that and the parenting quality probably hasn't changed all that much it's just that the environment has changed. So do we try to change the environment back or do we work out new ways to prevent the toxic environment online from damaging kids?
Confronting pornsickness isn't going to happen any time soon.

Remember in the last place where we ended up discussing the MP who was watching p.rn at work? It then descended into a load of drivel about whether it is acceptable to view p.rn if one is

a) not using the work's wifi
b) noone sees you
c) you are doing it for 'relaxation' rather than anything sexual
d) you are w.nking in the privacy of your own toilet cubicle.

The above discussion was about grown men and whether it was an infringement of their rights to expect them to get through a whole working day without p.rn, the poor things. I have tutored numerous girls who have been harassed by boys accessing hardcore p.rn on their mobiles and shoving the screen in their face, ("Ha! What do you think about this!") and I've tutored boys who had conveniently left p.rn sites on the laptop so that I could see it when they logged in. Back when I was in primary schooI I had boys who thought it was hilarious to show me p.rn mags and shout, "DOES YOURS LOOK LIKE THAT YET?" but I suppose I should be grateful that it wasn't a video of a woman with a cock in every orifice, splattered in jizz.

Given that a bunch of grown adults couldn't bring themselves to say that it's probably best to ban p.rn from the workplace without descending into a load of fuckery ('Ooh, what is the definition of p.rn?' 'Ah, but would a picture of a nipple get someone fired?') I'd be amazed if any sensible suggestions are made regarding teenagers not engaging with w.nk fodder at school.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:45 pm

Yes, the "if someone w.nks in a forest" discussion was not a high point of the previous forum, and I say that as someone who got into a stupid argument on the silly side of it.

I feel a sort of duality about p.rn in a way. I think it can be good, but personally feel it was damaging to me during my adolescence and early adulthood, in terms of attitudes, expectations, and so on. When in the hands of teenage boys (and MPs) it's likely to lead to a warping of how they see sex, and put really tough pressure on girls/women to meet the artificial standard that p.rn presents.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JellyandJackson » Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:19 pm

nezumi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:30 pm

Kid B probably needs a pocket money raise.
:D She agrees with you! I agree with the fence analogy too.
Thanks for the email tip, Grumble.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:24 pm

JellyandJackson wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:19 pm
nezumi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:30 pm

Kid B probably needs a pocket money raise.
:D She agrees with you! I agree with the fence analogy too.
Thanks for the email tip, Grumble.
Either a pocket money raise or buy her a taser.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:07 pm

I've moved some posts discussing mod actions over to the Admin forum
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2340&p=76119#p76100

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:07 am

It looks as though Australian politics has generated yet another apposite story for this thread.

A New South Wales MP has just lost his job for sexting a sex worker while literally sitting in Question Time and trying to arrange an appointment with her inside Parliament House. Which is all highly appropriate workplace behaviour.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-30/ ... /100036294

Some might argue that he should have at least stepped aside a week earlier when it emerged that police were investigating an allegation by the same sex worker that he'd sexually assaulted her, but I guess that alleged incident didn't happen during work hours and didn't come with a convenient set of text messages and dick pics for the media to print.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bmforre » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:04 pm

Haaretz report:
An Israeli far-right party, which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu helped bring into the Knesset, is now asking Netanyahu to cancel Israel’s commitment to combating violence against women.

The anti-LGBT Noam party, which won a single Knesset seat as part of the Religious Zionism slate, announced on Thursday that it will back Netanyahu in his bid to form a new government as expected.

However, it is demanding in return that Israel cancel its official commitment to U.N. Resolution 1325, which obligates it "to include women in all decision-making bodies, especially those dealing with matters of security and peace and to take definitive action to protect women from violence and uphold international law with respect to the human rights of women and girls."
Must uphold traditional violent values:
Noam presents itself as a religious party founded on family values, and aims to reverse the progress Israel has made in recent decades with regards to women’s equality and LGBT rights. Before last week’s election, Netanyahu put heavy pressure on the leaders of several far-right parties, including Noam, to run under one slate in order to increase their representation in the Knesset. Noam’s leader, Avi Maoz, was elected to the Knesset as a result of those efforts.

With his election, Maoz now has some political leverage; without his support, Netanyahu will find it extremely difficult to swear in a new government...

“We will demand to fix government decision 2331, which orders the institutions of the state to adhere to U.N. resolution 1325.”

That government decision, adopted in 2014, called on all official state institutions in Israel to protect women’s rights and ensure representation and security for women. It represents Israel's official commitment to the U.N. resolution passed 14 years earlier, which is viewed as a historic milestone in the fight for women’s equality around the world.
I warmly recommend Haaretz.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:27 am

"Women ask if I need help and offer an arm to direct me, men have taken the opposite arm and groped me."

Angharad Paget-Jones, 27, is severely visually impaired and said some men have taken advantage of her under the guise of being helpful.

ONS figures from 2018 show disabled women were almost twice as likely to have experienced any sexual assault than non-disabled women. Ms Paget-Jones, from Port Talbot, said she had been grabbed in public multiple times while out with her guide dog Tudor, which has left her "feeling scared".

She recalled one incident when she could hear a group of boys saying, "you could just grab her, she can't see you anyway", which led her to divert into a nearby shop for safety....I reported an incident to a security officer in a well-known train station in London and he just told me my dress shouldn't have been so low cut.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56664969

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:10 pm

This is a list of reasons women could be committed to insane asylums in the second half of the 19th century. At first some of them seem funny but then you think about how much male power over women it represents and how easy it was to dispose of 'inconvenient' women. Not sure why novel reading has been circled.

Image

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Gfamily » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:01 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:10 pm
This is a list of reasons women could be committed to insane asylums in the second half of the 19th century. At first some of them seem funny but then you think about how much male power over women it represents and how easy it was to dispose of 'inconvenient' women. Not sure why novel reading has been circled.

Image
Whilst agreeing with your principal point, the list isn't a collation of reasons why they were detained; rather they were suggestions made as to what might have caused the illness.

"That is, people didn’t think that novel reading, asthma, the marriage of one’s child, politics, or falling from a horse were symptoms of mental illness, but rather factors that might have produced or exacerbated such an illness

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/reaso ... lum-1800s/
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:14 pm

That’s interesting. Perhaps the Victorian notion of novel reading causing hysteria is a bit like us assuming that excessive reading of Facebook causes paranoia.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by lpm » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:36 pm

When in fact reading Facebook just leads to low self esteem and Nazism.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Matatouille
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Matatouille » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:40 pm

It is interesting that "Tobacco & m.st.rbation" are together as one. Presumably either on their own are perfectly fine, but putting them together is when the trouble starts. Like Potassium & Water.

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Grumble
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Grumble » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 pm

How would one suppress menses? I mean these days you can do it with the pill, but what do they mean?
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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