Male violence and harassment of women

[jimbob]

Don't forget this happened about the same time as the Sarah Everard case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... 198702.amp

Utterly shameful too.

[Fishnut]

I was curious about how often officers misused their warrant cards and I found an FOI request for the Met that was answered here [PDF]. It lists 43 cases between January 2015 and September 2018. Summary stats are provided here.

Complaints included:
Off duty officer attended complainant's home in a drunken state, banging aggressively on her door and showing his warrant card.
Allegation result - upheld by local borough
Officer result - no case to answer
Outcome - management action
Sanction - none

The complainant alleges that off duty officer seemingly under the influence of alcohol has attended an entertainments venue, and spoke to 2 females who left shortly afterwards. The officer has then produced his warrant card at the reception and asked to be provided with contact details for the females, including home addresses. When refused the officer then told other customers that the venue was letting in under age people. The officer was barred nationally from the venue but returned on two further occasions, again under the influence of alcohol and made allegations that the venue was allowing underage people and prostitutes in. The complainant is concerned that the Officer may have a drink problem and that their unfounded allegations could cause reputational damage to the MPS, and the venue.
Allegation result - upheld by local borough
Officer result - case to answer
Outcome - formal action
Sanction - final written warning

The informant alleges the officer has been in her personal space has repeatedly sworn at her and then assaulted her, has shown a warrant card and said words to the effect of "I am the law"
Allegation result - de-recorded [no idea what that means]
Officer result - nothing
Outcome - nothing
Sanction - nothing

Allegation that an off duty Met officer flashed his warrant card and inappropriately searched the premises and property of an elderly female causing her anxiety and distress.
Allegation result - local resolution - by local borough
Officer result - nothing
Outcome - nothing
Sanction - nothing

MSC Officer said to have been using his Warrant Card to gain access to a building whilst off duty in order to make contact with his ex girlfriend whilst at her place of work.
Allegation result - ongoing case
Officer result - nothing
Outcome - nothing
Sanction - nothing

Most people seemed to face no consequences. The worst sanction was a "final written warning". What was most interesting was how many of the incidents involved the officers being intoxicated at the time. The Met's statement about Couzens said,

Met officers also take an oath where they promise to be a police officer around the clock and are expected to intervene even if off duty if they see someone committing an offence or there is another need to protect the public.  In these circumstances their warrant card helps them identify themselves and demonstrate they are acting as an officer.  

I can understand where this thinking comes from but I think it's dangerous - both on an individual and a societal level. I can imagine it's thought of as analogous to being a doctor or something, except doctors are less able to abuse their position of authority outside a medical setting. And the complaints show how prone to abuse this system is - people get drunk and decide to go on a power trip.

[mediocrity511]

The Guardian has a report on indecent exposure figures for the UK. They have compiled figures from the Ministry of Justice, the ONS and the Crime Survey for England and Wales, and found the following:
- 113,000 women were subjected to indecent exposure last year (around 1 in 10 women in the country)
- 10,775 cases of “exposure and voyeurism” were reported to police in the year to March 2020 (around 10% of cases)
- 594 cases made it to court (5.5% of cases reported)
- 435 cases were given guilty verdicts (73% of cases that made it to court)

They quote victims' commissioner Vera Baird as saying,

“It really seems to be an epidemic,” Baird said. “I hardly know a woman who hasn’t been flashed. It clearly is endemic and it needs to be taken seriously, particularly because I think that attitude that it discloses is quite risky.”

What struck me is how these are actually better than the figures for rape.
- 294,280 women were raped or assaulted by penetration (I can't find precise figures but the ONS reports that fewer than 1 in 5 women report their rape or assault by penetration to the police (ONS figures) so I've calculated an estimate from the reported cases, and is still better than the 1 in 10 for indecent exposure
- 58,856 cases of rape were reported to police in the year to March 2020 (according to the BBC)
- 2,102 cases made it to court (around 3.6% of cases reported) (according to the BBC)
- I can't actually find the number of convictions. The ONS has lots of info on why a precise figure is hard to come by.

So we're in a weird position of the police clearly not caring about indecent exposure but somehow still doing a better job of getting convictions on the cases that are reported to them than they do for rapes, despite rape being the more serious crime.

I would hazard a guess that it may be because flashers are less likely to be known to their victim than rapists. The perpetrators can't really admit that it happened but say that it was consensual like they can with rape.

[discovolante]

Sorry I have to start this by saying that I haven't looked at the links properly but as well as what medi said I wonder if 'flashing' is more likely to be dealt with in the magistrates court than the crown, and as a result the conviction rate may be higher.

If I actually read the links properly and it shows that I'm wrong I'll correct myself, just not sure if I will get chance over the next few days.

[Woodchopper]

As well as what Medi and Disco write, I assume that flashing usually takes place in public places, and if there is cctv that could be used to identify the perpetrator and prove guilt. Whereas rapes are usually in private places.

Also, the ONS figures are based upon surveys which have a margins of error.

[discovolante]

To be fair the conviction rates may not be hugely different anyway (although the overall conviction rate is possibly interesting) https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... and-wales/
(I should probably not be posting when I wake up at 5:30am and aren't really in a state to check/verify sources either)

[Tessa K]

There's a flasher in my area at the moment that the police are aware of but haven't caught.

https://news.met.police.uk/news/investi ... den-433277

Although flashers may be caught on CCTV, it's a fast crime so it's hard to catch someone in the act.

[Sciolus]

I suspect exposers are likely to offend more frequently with a greater numbers of victims, so once caught it's easier to prove identity, pattern of behaviour and so on, which makes a conviction more likely.

If you like a few laughs with your police investigations of exposure, I thought It's a Fair Cop from a few months ago was quite good. I especially liked the chief ordering him to stop trying to catch the exposer because it was taking too much time following up all the cases (not a joke, sadly).

[Tessa K]

How to avoid sexual assault...

[Grumble]

How to avoid sexual assault...

If you think you might falsely arrest someone with the intention of sexual assault or worse, flag down a bus instead.

[egbert26]

I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...

Anyhoo, on the topic of whether minor sex crimes are warrant further investigation, I read about a man who was caught 'upskirting', which lead to the police discovering this.

[Grumble]

I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...

Anyhoo, on the topic of whether minor sex crimes are warrant further investigation, I read about a man who was caught 'upskirting', which lead to the police discovering this.

Is upskirting a crime in the U.K. yet? Absolutely agree that “minor” crimes should be investigated thoroughly.

[bagpuss]

I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...

I believe some police forces do record hate crimes based on misogyny but only a few. It was raised on the Today programme on R4 this morning. They were talking to Sajid Javid and apparently he asked the Law Commission for a review of whether it should indeed be treated as a hate crime when he was Home Sec. I just searched for references and found that that was indeed the case - back in 2018 - along with misandry and ageism and "alternative subcultures". I have no idea how long such things take but we seem to be 3 years down the line with no answer yet. Javid refused to answer the question as to whether he personally thought that it should be, saying that he preferred to base such things on evidence. I'm not sure what evidence he needs, really, so that was clearly just evading the question.

[Sciolus]

Upskirting is now illegal, no thanks to that tw.t of an MP who objected.

A tiny but revealing thing in an interview with Sir Bob Neil, Tory chair of the Justice Select Committee, on yesterday's https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00100j4]WATO at about 21:30:

... a very clear strategy from the Met and indeed all other polices forces about reassurances to young women that their safety is taken properly...

It's unclear whether he thinks that middle-aged and elderly woman (a) don't exist (b) don't matter (c) aren't vulnerable or likely to be victims of sex attacks (d) all of the above.

[jimbob]

I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...

Anyhoo, on the topic of whether minor sex crimes are warrant further investigation, I read about a man who was caught 'upskirting', which lead to the police discovering this.

Indeed. Misogyny is a definite hate category of itself - see the whole idea behind "incel" culture.

[Tessa K]

I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...

I believe some police forces do record hate crimes based on misogyny but only a few. It was raised on the Today programme on R4 this morning. They were talking to Sajid Javid and apparently he asked the Law Commission for a review of whether it should indeed be treated as a hate crime when he was Home Sec. I just searched for references and found that that was indeed the case - back in 2018 - along with misandry and ageism and "alternative subcultures". I have no idea how long such things take but we seem to be 3 years down the line with no answer yet. Javid refused to answer the question as to whether he personally thought that it should be, saying that he preferred to base such things on evidence. I'm not sure what evidence he needs, really, so that was clearly just evading the question.

The 'alternative subculture' mentioned in that article is Goth. I do appreciate a bit of goth culture myself but how will they distinguish between goth as a fashion choice and goth as a lifestyle/philosophy?

[Grumble]

I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...

Anyhoo, on the topic of whether minor sex crimes are warrant further investigation, I read about a man who was caught 'upskirting', which lead to the police discovering this.

Is upskirting a crime in the U.K. yet? Absolutely agree that “minor” crimes should be investigated thoroughly.

Can’t get this story out of my head. Literal horror show. A town of 5,800 people? Hard to believe people not directly involved didn’t know

[Stranger Mouse]

It just occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to tell a genuine warrant card from an off peak bus pass.

[OffTheRock]

Some coppers join up at 18, well before they develop detectable violent or misogynist tendencies so they're harder to weed out.

It's good to see that the BBC is now calling him a Met police officer rather than a former policeman which was ambiguous and made it sound like the job was in the past, which could let the Met off the hook.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614

Having taught boys from 11 to 18, I think it would be sadly truer to say that the tendencies can develop before 18, but may only become expressed later with increased opportunity and out of parental control. Sometimes with increasing age comes the realisation that said attitudes and urges are best hidden from their fellow man.

I have taught boys aged just 14 or so with truly shocking attitudes towards females but by 18 they pass as acceptable human beings: What would I have done if I had been asked to write a reference for one of those wanting to join the Police? I am not sure what I, or anyone could have legally said.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... d-colleges

I don’t know if this has been linked to earlier in the thread, but this was released in June and is pertinent to schools and under 18s. I think there’s a case for some kids to be identified under the Prevent, which might pick out the future attackers, but some behaviours are so widespread that it’s going to take a totally different strategy. Especially in those schools where the ‘minor’ stuff is sometimes brushed over as ‘boys being boys’.

[OffTheRock]

It just occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to tell a genuine warrant card from an off peak bus pass.

I don’t think I would tbh.

[basementer]

It just occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to tell a genuine warrant card from an off peak bus pass.

I don’t think I would tbh.

Good point, nor would I. A search found a selection of images, so I feel a bit better informed now.

[noggins]

I think the warrant card is a red herring.

An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.

[Gfamily]

I think the warrant card is a red herring.

An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.

If not uniformed, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were on or off duty.

To me, the issue is that if we give the police a special status as regards the severity of sentencing for an assault on an officer, or the murder of an officer, then they should be subjected to a similar severity in terms of sentencing for their misdemeanours.

[dyqik]

I think the warrant card is a red herring.

An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.

If not uniformed, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were on or off duty.

To me, the issue is that if we give the police a special status as regards the severity of sentencing for an assault on an officer, or the murder of an officer, then they should be subjected to a similar severity in terms of sentencing for their misdemeanours.

You don't need the special severity of sentencing for assault on a police officer to exist for that, in my opinion.

A police officer that breaks the law in a way that harms a member of the public is violating the trust placed in them, and damaging trust in government and democratic society, as well as doing the same harm that a member of the public committing the same offense would be doing. So the sentence should be more severe to reflect the greater harm.

[egbert26]

Can’t get this story out of my head. Literal horror show. A town of 5,800 people? Hard to believe people not directly involved didn’t know

It really is quite something. I'm no longer shocked by male sexual depravity but I'm somewhat aghast that this pervert managed to find at least 44 other perverts to join him in his venture. And as paraphilias come in bundles, the rape wasn't enough so he had to go upskirting too.

I was talking to EM tonight about all this. He went to a boys' school and the school never mentioned anything to do with sex crimes. He was pretty shocked that due to the number of incidents involving indecent exposure at a park near my school, we were banned from the park. If you were seen entering or leaving the park whilst in your school uniform you'd get in trouble. I remember as a teen noone mentioned being mugged. My parents never read me the riot act about booze and drugs. I just remember being told that I must not walk along certain underpasses, parks and public footpaths because of perverts.