Dangerous women being put into general populations because of a lack of funding and a government that believes crime can be solved by sticking as many people in prison as possible.purplehaze wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:22 pmWell there's women's prison estate for a start.Fishnut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:12 pmWe currently do not need GRCs to access safe spaces. Show me evidence that this is allowing men to enter those spaces in order to abuse women and then we can have a discussion.purplehaze wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:02 pmThe whole point is that you don't need a GRC to access safe spaces and that cis men, who are abusive, will do anything to exploit this and all to the detriment of anyone who stands in their way, including those who need help.
Women's estate is the most vulnerable.
But I agree Fishnut this is side lining. And no one talked about the 'ladies' sign on the door.
Male violence and harassment of women
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
it's okay to say "I don't know"
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
It's not just the illegal non-consensual and under-age material.
The p.rnography industry routinely shows men fictionalised depictions of illegal sexual assaults and sexual harassment. If anyone is genuinely concerned about the prevalence of indecent exposure then they should be concerned about videos depicting indecent exposure where the woman victim responds with delight at the sight of a penis. If you worry about street harassment, also worry about videos where men go up to women in the street and offer money for sex, with the woman acting out reluctance or pretending to walk away before eventually agreeing to sex. Recently someone on this forum made a joke about another common trope in p.rnography, that of a taxi driver exploiting a woman passenger for sex which she soon becomes eager for. How does that trope make women taking a taxi late at night feel?
In recent years p.rnography has been seen as "sex positive". Part of the new era of better sexual relationships, more adventurous sex lives and acceptance of "non-conventional" sexual activities. This might be true.
But p.rnography must also be seen as "assault positive". For violent men and harassing men, much of what they watch is a direct endorsement of what they want to do. It normalises their behaviour and makes them think all men are like them.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Plus the rise in 'Taxi' p.rn post John Worboys. Charmingly now known, via google, as Black Cab Rapist.lpm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:28 pmIt's not just the illegal non-consensual and under-age material.
The p.rnography industry routinely shows men fictionalised depictions of illegal sexual assaults and sexual harassment. If anyone is genuinely concerned about the prevalence of indecent exposure then they should be concerned about videos depicting indecent exposure where the woman victim responds with delight at the sight of a penis. If you worry about street harassment, also worry about videos where men go up to women in the street and offer money for sex, with the woman acting out reluctance or pretending to walk away before eventually agreeing to sex. Recently someone on this forum made a joke about another common trope in p.rnography, that of a taxi driver exploiting a woman passenger for sex which she soon becomes eager for. How does that trope make women taking a taxi late at night feel?
In recent years p.rnography has been seen as "sex positive". Part of the new era of better sexual relationships, more adventurous sex lives and acceptance of "non-conventional" sexual activities. This might be true.
But p.rnography must also be seen as "assault positive". For violent men and harassing men, much of what they watch is a direct endorsement of what they want to do. It normalises their behaviour and makes them think all men are like them.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
I wholeheartedly agree. I'm amazed how we pretend that romance films/books are a bad influence as so often the man gets the gal by stalking her, but p.rn gets a free pass. Similarly, we get all squeamish about the racist and sexist bits of old TV programmes, yet the fact that sexual harassment and assault p.rn gets millions of views is not a concern, presumably because people watch it alone so we can pretend it's not a problem. Benny Hill chasing women in bikinis is only problematic because he didn't get to bang them at the end of the clip. Or something.lpm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:28 pm
It's not just the illegal non-consensual and under-age material.
The p.rnography industry routinely shows men fictionalised depictions of illegal sexual assaults and sexual harassment. If anyone is genuinely concerned about the prevalence of indecent exposure then they should be concerned about videos depicting indecent exposure where the woman victim responds with delight at the sight of a penis. If you worry about street harassment, also worry about videos where men go up to women in the street and offer money for sex, with the woman acting out reluctance or pretending to walk away before eventually agreeing to sex. Recently someone on this forum made a joke about another common trope in p.rnography, that of a taxi driver exploiting a woman passenger for sex which she soon becomes eager for. How does that trope make women taking a taxi late at night feel?
In recent years p.rnography has been seen as "sex positive". Part of the new era of better sexual relationships, more adventurous sex lives and acceptance of "non-conventional" sexual activities. This might be true.
But p.rnography must also be seen as "assault positive". For violent men and harassing men, much of what they watch is a direct endorsement of what they want to do. It normalises their behaviour and makes them think all men are like them.
I've had men tell me that 'female friendly' p.rn exists so that definitely proves that the p.rn industry is catching up with modern times. I ask them if their w.nk fodder could be considered 'female hostile'. *crickets* Maybe it should be offered as a category of p.rn sites to save valuable time on the bus.
It's what happens when they try to apply IATBMCTT with their willies...
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
The existence of female friendly p.rn as a sub category only shows that women do want to watch some p.rn but much existing p.rn isn’t female friendly.egbert26 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:36 pmI've had men tell me that 'female friendly' p.rn exists so that definitely proves that the p.rn industry is catching up with modern times. I ask them if their w.nk fodder could be considered 'female hostile'. *crickets* Maybe it should be offered as a category of p.rn sites to save valuable time on the bus.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Boris Johnson rules out making misogyny a hate crime because it would overload the police.
I'm feeling safer already
So, our Prime Minister recognises that misogyny an endemic problem, but rather than, you know, do something about that he downplays it saying it's not a "real crime" and confirms campaigners suspicions that women's complaints are trivialised....asked about the campaign for misogyny to be made a specific hate crime, he replied: “Rather than introducing new laws, what you need to do is enforce the existing laws.”
Mr Johnson added: “To be perfectly frank, if you simply widen the scope of what you ask the police to do, you’ll just increase the problem.
“What you need to do is get police to focus on the very real crimes,” he told BBC Breakfast, “the very real feeling of injustice and betrayal that many people feel.”
...
Most chief constables have backed making misogyny a hate crime in the courts, but Scotland Yard is seen by many as an obstruction to the change.
Campaigners argue it would encourage women to report public harassment because they could have more confidence that it would be treated seriously.
They believe it would also help to change the culture of police forces, amid widespread concern that women’s complaints are trivialised.
I'm feeling safer already
it's okay to say "I don't know"
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
[my bold]Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:47 amBoris Johnson rules out making misogyny a hate crime because it would overload the police.
So, our Prime Minister recognises that misogyny an endemic problem, but rather than, you know, do something about that he downplays it saying it's not a "real crime" and confirms campaigners suspicions that women's complaints are trivialised....asked about the campaign for misogyny to be made a specific hate crime, he replied: “Rather than introducing new laws, what you need to do is enforce the existing laws.”
Mr Johnson added: “To be perfectly frank, if you simply widen the scope of what you ask the police to do, you’ll just increase the problem.
“What you need to do is get police to focus on the very real crimes,” he told BBC Breakfast, “the very real feeling of injustice and betrayal that many people feel.”
...
Most chief constables have backed making misogyny a hate crime in the courts, but Scotland Yard is seen by many as an obstruction to the change.
Campaigners argue it would encourage women to report public harassment because they could have more confidence that it would be treated seriously.
They believe it would also help to change the culture of police forces, amid widespread concern that women’s complaints are trivialised.
I'm feeling safer already
So women's sense of injustice and betrayal is not real? Is that what he's saying? I mean, I know I'm being ridiculous in attempting to make any kind of logical sense of any words that emit from Johnson's mouth, but that really does sound as if he's saying that crimes involving misogyny are not real crimes and that women's feelings aren't real.
f.ck me, I didn't think my opinion of Johnson could go any lower, but there it goes again, down another notch.
ETA: And he does realise that this is talking about things that are already crimes, but just aren't classified as hate crimes, doesn't he? Or am I hopelessly wrong about that?
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
I read it as saying that the police should focus on improving conviction rates for sexual assaults, domestic violence, and other crimes against women, rather than adding another type of crime to the books with an equally execrable conviction rate.
But the implication that hate crimes are in some way less "real" is certainly troubling, and I don't see how making something a hate crime would be incompatible with improving conviction rates either.
He's really not as eloquent as people say when he has something difficult to talk about, rather than making silly jokes about the Romans.
But the implication that hate crimes are in some way less "real" is certainly troubling, and I don't see how making something a hate crime would be incompatible with improving conviction rates either.
He's really not as eloquent as people say when he has something difficult to talk about, rather than making silly jokes about the Romans.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
That's certainly how I read it. It may not have been what he intended to say but that's how it came across to me.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
I've never heard him being even remotely eloquent, except when he has a script to read from. He blusters, mumbles, talks in half sentences which don't string together in any coherent way and generally sounds like he has no idea what he's talking about.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:18 amI read it as saying that the police should focus on improving conviction rates for sexual assaults, domestic violence, and other crimes against women, rather than adding another type of crime to the books with an equally execrable conviction rate.
But the implication that hate crimes are in some way less "real" is certainly troubling, and I don't see how making something a hate crime would be incompatible with improving conviction rates either.
He's really not as eloquent as people say when he has something difficult to talk about, rather than making silly jokes about the Romans.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Yes, exactly. I would imagine that he intended to say roughly what BoAF said but what he actually said was something different. The thing is, I don't think that you would make that mistake and use those words if you really believed that crimes that would/should be classified as misogyny hate crimes are important. You'd use words like "even more serious" not "very real".
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
It's interesting isn't it, I don't think I've ever seen a politician say some things shouldn't be crimes because the police would be overloaded. We know lots of crime, such as burglary, often doesn't get investigated and you just get a crime number for insurance purposes. But no one argues we should decriminalise burglary so as not to overload the police.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
So they're not in the business of creating new laws and new crimes that will create more work for the police and justice system? What's this all about then?
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
The issue isn’t about creating new crimes or not.
In the UK ‘hate crime’ is a category that can apply to any crime (eg racially abusive graffiti) if it is deemed to be motivated by hate directed at the following: Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual orientation or Transgender identity.
The effect of a crime being categorised as a hate crime is that courts can give harsher punishments and the police are supposed to focus more time and effort (including recording specific statistics so that performance can be assessed).
The legislation has been introduced piecemeal and the law commission is examining how it can be informed (including adding sex and gender). https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/hate-crime/
The hate crime category was intended to push the police and courts to focus upon crimes against specific vulnerable minority groups (eg gay bashing). The categories were never intended to be an exhaustive list of all crimes motivated by hate. So the rationale for not including misogyny was that including crimes directed against half the population would dilute the focus on the above categories.
I think that misogyny should be included, and that’s an argument for increasing police resources to ensure that the result isn’t lesser attention paid to existing hate crime categories.
In the UK ‘hate crime’ is a category that can apply to any crime (eg racially abusive graffiti) if it is deemed to be motivated by hate directed at the following: Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual orientation or Transgender identity.
The effect of a crime being categorised as a hate crime is that courts can give harsher punishments and the police are supposed to focus more time and effort (including recording specific statistics so that performance can be assessed).
The legislation has been introduced piecemeal and the law commission is examining how it can be informed (including adding sex and gender). https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/hate-crime/
The hate crime category was intended to push the police and courts to focus upon crimes against specific vulnerable minority groups (eg gay bashing). The categories were never intended to be an exhaustive list of all crimes motivated by hate. So the rationale for not including misogyny was that including crimes directed against half the population would dilute the focus on the above categories.
I think that misogyny should be included, and that’s an argument for increasing police resources to ensure that the result isn’t lesser attention paid to existing hate crime categories.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
I can understand that rationale to some extent.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:09 pmSo the rationale for not including misogyny was that including crimes directed against half the population would dilute the focus on the above categories.
I don't know think that making misogyny a hate crime is any sort of actual solution but what frustrates me is that Johnson has, with his comments, admitted that misogyny is a massive problem in this country - if it wasn't then making it a hate crime wouldn't be that big a deal - but has essentially shrugged his shoulders and said "but there's nothing we can do about it".
it's okay to say "I don't know"
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Banks can be too big to fail, crimes can be too big to handle, leadership can be too feeble to make a difference.Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:23 pmI can understand that rationale to some extent.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:09 pmSo the rationale for not including misogyny was that including crimes directed against half the population would dilute the focus on the above categories.
I don't know think that making misogyny a hate crime is any sort of actual solution but what frustrates me is that Johnson has, with his comments, admitted that misogyny is a massive problem in this country - if it wasn't then making it a hate crime wouldn't be that big a deal - but has essentially shrugged his shoulders and said "but there's nothing we can do about it".
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
It would probably help if media reporting of hate crime legislation was more accurate. Talk of "Making misogyny a hate crime," probably leads people to think that we are on the verge of creating thought crimes. As chops pointed out, "Hate crimes" are things that would be crimes anyway, whatever the motivation for them, but where the where there is the aggravating factor that the victim is targeted on the basis of one or more protected characteristics. If this were more carefully explained then I think it would be hard to object to the addition of gender to the list of protected characteristics. And if 50% of the population were potential targets of such hate crimes then that would seem to strengthen the case for making gender a protected characteristic, rather than weakening it (and FWIW it would be 100% of the population, not 50%, so far as I can see, because everyone has a gender).Fishnut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:23 pmI can understand that rationale to some extent.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:09 pmSo the rationale for not including misogyny was that including crimes directed against half the population would dilute the focus on the above categories.
I don't know think that making misogyny a hate crime is any sort of actual solution but what frustrates me is that Johnson has, with his comments, admitted that misogyny is a massive problem in this country - if it wasn't then making it a hate crime wouldn't be that big a deal - but has essentially shrugged his shoulders and said "but there's nothing we can do about it".
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Thread from the Times today - although Mentioned earlier here
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/144 ... 88512?s=20
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/144 ... 88512?s=20
“It’s fair to say sex on duty was seen by some as being a perk of the job,” she says
“It left me feeling like I didn’t know who to talk to about it
Saying to the concerned man, ‘Don’t do this to me. Don’t do this to her, just don’t do this at all’, made no difference”
Fishnut wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:26 pmWHAT. THE. f.ck.???????Tessa K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:56 pmOn Woman's Hour today one of the guests was Susannah Fish, former Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire Police force. She said that even she would be reluctant to report any sexual assault on her to the police. She also spoke about how officers used to think that having sex with victims and witnesses of crimes was a perk of the job. She made it a crime but faced huge opposition trying to do it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000t47g
I know that in many US states they allow sex between officers and detainees as long as they claim it's consensual (totally ignoring the power differential). And of course, given that rape prosecution and conviction statistics are even worse than the UK, even if it's non-consensual it doesn't mean anything will be done.
But somehow in my rose-tinted-glass naivety I'd assumed that the UK would be somewhat better and recognise that sex between officers and members of the public who have occasion to interact with the police would be, if not against the rules, then at least actively frowned on and discouraged. Perk of the job FFS
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
For the avoidance of doubt heterosexuality is included in Sexual orientation.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:09 pmThe issue isn’t about creating new crimes or not.
In the UK ‘hate crime’ is a category that can apply to any crime (eg racially abusive graffiti) if it is deemed to be motivated by hate directed at the following: Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual orientation or Transgender identity.
The effect of a crime being categorised as a hate crime is that courts can give harsher punishments and the police are supposed to focus more time and effort (including recording specific statistics so that performance can be assessed).
The legislation has been introduced piecemeal and the law commission is examining how it can be informed (including adding sex and gender). https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/hate-crime/
The hate crime category was intended to push the police and courts to focus upon crimes against specific vulnerable minority groups (eg gay bashing). The categories were never intended to be an exhaustive list of all crimes motivated by hate. So the rationale for not including misogyny was that including crimes directed against half the population would dilute the focus on the above categories.
I think that misogyny should be included, and that’s an argument for increasing police resources to ensure that the result isn’t lesser attention paid to existing hate crime categories.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/h ... n-guidance
"The Public Order Act 1986 confirms that "hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation" means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to sexual orientation whether towards persons of the same sex, the opposite sex or both. This therefore covers hostility towards lesbian, gay, bisexual and heterosexual people."
Whether anyone has been prosecuted under the grounds of hatred towards a heterosexual woman, I'm sorry but I don't know. I agree that misogyny should be included for clarification purposes.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Priti Patel has announced an Inquiry following Sarah Everard's murder (pretty sure I saw something from Boris Johnson saying there wouldn't be one only a day or two ago but anyone expecting consistency from this government is going to be sorely disappointed).
Jo Maugham has a good thread about it. It seems the terms of reference are very much focused on Couzens, even though, as Maugham points out, he's a symptom not the cause, and he fears (quite rightly imo) that this focus will "sidetrack" the Inquiry from where its focus really needs to be which is on the "cultural problems underlying how the criminal justice system deals with violence against women and girls."
Jo Maugham has a good thread about it. It seems the terms of reference are very much focused on Couzens, even though, as Maugham points out, he's a symptom not the cause, and he fears (quite rightly imo) that this focus will "sidetrack" the Inquiry from where its focus really needs to be which is on the "cultural problems underlying how the criminal justice system deals with violence against women and girls."
it's okay to say "I don't know"
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
The Justice Secretary doesn't even know what misogyny means. Sigh.
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 8077725698
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 8077725698
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
It's OK Dominic Raab has a firm grasp of the issues
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 25698?s=20
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 25698?s=20
ETA: TessaK beat me to itJames Felton
@JimMFelton
“Misogyny is absolutely wrong, whether it’s a man against a woman, or a woman against a man”
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
It bears repeatingjimbob wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:43 amIt's OK Dominic Raab has a firm grasp of the issues
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1 ... 25698?s=20
ETA: TessaK beat me to itJames Felton
@JimMFelton
“Misogyny is absolutely wrong, whether it’s a man against a woman, or a woman against a man”
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
From the BBC
A woman who was pictured being arrested at the Sarah Everard vigil has said "about 50" police officers have since contacted her via a dating app, leaving her "terrified"... She said that since the arrest, "about 50" police officers and security guards had approached her via the dating app. "They were all in uniform on their profiles or it said 'I'm a police officer'," she said.
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