Male violence and harassment of women

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Woodchopper
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:03 pm

Grumble wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 pm
How would one suppress menses? I mean these days you can do it with the pill, but what do they mean?
Can be a symptom of other medical conditions. Maybe suppressed menses was the most obvious symptom of something else, which also led to mental health problems.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:26 pm

Pregnancy will do that to you I guess. And the thing that comes after pregnancy.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:57 am

The most obvious direct cause for suppression of menses is presumably nutritional deficiency of some kind. Nowadays, girls get earned to look out for it as a sign that dieting or exercise have got out of hand. Back then, there would have been a range of exciting reasons why a woman might have eaten too little too remain fertile. In addition to all sorts of illnesses that can affect the hormonal system without obvious external cause.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:23 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:14 pm
That’s interesting. Perhaps the Victorian notion of novel reading causing hysteria is a bit like us assuming that excessive reading of Facebook causes paranoia.
Novel reading was seen as dangerous or at least undesirable because it was mostly done by women and might put ideas in their heads. Even novelists picked up on this (sometimes to mock the idea).
In “Madame Bovary” (1856), Gustave Flaubert describes a teenage Emma Bovary who “made her hands dirty with books from old lending libraries.”

“Through Walter Scott, later on, she fell in love with historical events, dreamed of old chests, guard-rooms and minstrels. She would have liked to live in some old manor-house, like those long-waisted chatelaines who, in the shade of pointed arches, spent their days leaning on the stone, chin in hand, watching a cavalier with white plume galloping on his black horse from the distant fields.Before marriage she thought herself in love; but the happiness that should have followed this love not having come, she must, she thought, have been mistaken. And Emma tried to find out what one meant exactly in life by the words felicity, passion, rapture, that had seemed to her so beautiful in books”
and
ane Austen’s “Northanger Abbey” (1817) tells the story of Catherine Morland, a lover of novels whose reading makes her believe a man she’s staying with is a murderer.
(sourced from here https://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/ ... d-for-you/

That list also puts Religion and Jealousy together, which is odd.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by tom p » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:37 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:03 pm
Grumble wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 pm
How would one suppress menses? I mean these days you can do it with the pill, but what do they mean?
Can be a symptom of other medical conditions. Maybe suppressed menses was the most obvious symptom of something else, which also led to mental health problems.
Menopause or peri-menopause

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JellyandJackson » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm

In case anyone was wondering what happened about kid B and the catcalling:
Very quick responses from both form tutor and head of year. The head of year’s email is brilliant. He is (with kid B’s consent) going to have a word with the offender.
The kids had assemblies today about harassment, the murder of Sarah Everard & subsequent protests, how to intervene, violence and sexual assault of both men and women, etc. I can’t remember all the details. Kid B says the assembly was good. She’s deeply cheesed off though by the response of her peers - girls going out of their way to say “it isn’t that bad”, the fact that “the assembly was about speaking up but the culture surrounding these things is so bad that this isn’t the conversation that is needed”, all the boys* in and after the assembly, which wasn’t particularly gendered, saying “not all men” etc. The school is also going to set up an anonymous page like everyone’s invited and inviting kids to add stories. They have clearly been planning a lot of this for a while.
As an outcome: pretty good, I think.
*Not all the boys. 3 decent ones, 1 of them gay.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:53 pm

Yay for the school, if not most of the students. Hopefully* the school's measures will help then learn. At least a little bit....

*What is there without hope?

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JellyandJackson » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:29 pm

Yes, I’m really impressed with the school.
I said to kid B, for all the gobby boys who won’t change and the girls who don’t think it’s a problem, there will be girls who have thought “well hang on, this isn’t on” who will now feel braver about responding / reporting harassment etc, and there will be boys who will feel braver in calling out their mates. She won’t know about the people who have been quietly encouraged because they will be being quiet about it.
So I am hopeful too.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:03 pm

Two Met PCs charged over crime scene photos:
Two Met Police officers have been charged over photographs allegedly taken at a crime scene where two sisters were stabbed to death. The photographs relate to the deaths of Nicole Smallman, 27, and Bibaa Henry, 46, who were found in Fryent Country Park, Wembley, last June. PC Deniz Jaffer and PC Jamie Lewis have each been charged with misconduct in a public office.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:24 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:03 pm
Two Met PCs charged over crime scene photos:
Two Met Police officers have been charged over photographs allegedly taken at a crime scene where two sisters were stabbed to death. The photographs relate to the deaths of Nicole Smallman, 27, and Bibaa Henry, 46, who were found in Fryent Country Park, Wembley, last June. PC Deniz Jaffer and PC Jamie Lewis have each been charged with misconduct in a public office.
Good. Thanks for the update.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:48 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:24 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:03 pm
Two Met PCs charged over crime scene photos:
Two Met Police officers have been charged over photographs allegedly taken at a crime scene where two sisters were stabbed to death. The photographs relate to the deaths of Nicole Smallman, 27, and Bibaa Henry, 46, who were found in Fryent Country Park, Wembley, last June. PC Deniz Jaffer and PC Jamie Lewis have each been charged with misconduct in a public office.
Good. Thanks for the update.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Tue May 04, 2021 11:00 am

I watched Promising Young Woman last night. It's excellent, Carey Mulligan is really good. But it's a tough watch.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Mon May 24, 2021 1:45 pm

Two articles from today's Guardian acting as a reminder of how sh.t things are for women in the UK in terms of being protected by the police and getting justice,

First Article
‘It was like a horror film’: Sophie Walker on her stalking nightmare – and how the police failed her
Sophie Walker, the founding leader of the Women’s Equality party (WEP), was stalked from April 2020. It began with her car tyres being slashed, then her back garden fence was set on fire.
“The police were called too, but didn’t show up,” Walker says.
The next day there was another fire in her back garden. The police did then come and fitted a panic alarm. Two days later a brick was thrown through her living room window and the police were able to catch the man who was seen on her CCTV. He had lighter fuel and matches, and was released on bail.
“I was very frightened at this point,” says Walker. “I thought: ‘He’s out and the police aren’t recognising this as a pattern of obsessive and controlling behaviour.’”
Three days later the man climbed onto her roof and started smashing the tiles with a big stick. After having to explain the whole story to the police again - apparently "there's a man on our roof smashing up the tiles" isn't enough to get the police to respond - they came and arrested him again. He was released on bail again, this time on the condition he didn't enter her postcode (given how small an area many postcode cover this doesn't seem a hugely reassuring restriction).

The man continued to come to her house, standing outside or setting fires. After her tweets got some attention the police started taking things a bit more seriously. On the day the case was referred to the Met’s specialist Stalking Threat Assessment Centre the CPS refused the harassment and arson charges.
“They couldn’t charge him with stalking because he had already pleaded guilty to two counts of criminal damage,” explains Walker’s lawyer...“A stalking conviction could have been in the bag just on the criminal damage offences, but the prosecutor was not thinking about it in those terms,” [Walker's lawyer Sophie] Naftalin explains. “Sophie and her family were therefore denied the justice of him being prosecuted for stalking, which more adequately reflects their suffering and could have seen him face a more severe penalty. Stalking with intent is a much more serious offence than two counts of criminal damage.”

She managed to get a restraining order against her "alleged" stalker (because he was never officially charged with stalking, he was never convicted) and it seems that things have got better for her inasmuch as the article doesn't report any other incidents after it was given. However, it notes that with lockdown trapping people in their homes,
The Met reported a 300% increase in stalking reports in London during the first year of the pandemic – 7,909 offences were recorded by police between April 2020 and February 2021, compared with 1,908 between April 2019 and March 2020.
The Met claim this is due to better reporting but other research indicates cases are actually increasing.

The Met says it's getting better at dealing with stalking, but given that the events recounted are from last year that suggests to me that they're merely starting from an incredibly sh.t baseline. As Walker says,
When I was terrified and asking them to come, I was met with ‘Calm down’ and ‘What’s wrong with you?’

“They understand crime against property, but the psychological stuff and the imbalance of power women feel – they don’t get at all.”
Second Article
Fewer than one in 60 rape cases lead to charge in England and Wales
Of the 52,210 rapes recorded in England and Wales last year, only 843 resulted in a charge or summons, or 1.6%. Not conviction - a charge.

We won't know how many of those result in a conviction for quite a while because of the huge backlog of cases, which has the side effect of more victims dropping out of cases, reducing conviction rates further.

The article talks about an end-to-end review that is be undertaken to investigate how rape is investigated and prosecuted in England and Wales. It was commissioned two years ago and was supposed to have been published last spring, but was delayed. MPs were told it would be published "before the end of [this] spring" and was apparently due for publication this week but has been pushed back to next month "as wrangling continues over how far the proposed actions to tackle record low rape charges and convictions should go."

If anyone thinks this is all just because it's hard to get rape convictions, think again. This article from 2019 shows that while reporting of rape has increased significantly since 2013, referrals for prosecution and convictions have decreased.
Some police forces refer significantly fewer cases to the CPS than others. No force has kept pace with the increase in rape complaints, and the majority are referring fewer cases than five years ago.
It very much seems that the police think it's too hard to make a case so don't bother trying for most of them and of those few they do deem obvious enough to ask the CPS to prosecute, the case takes so long to bring to trial that victims end up giving up because of the need to move on with their lives and try to recover. It's all so incredibly sh.t.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon May 24, 2021 2:26 pm

Seriously depressing

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 am

On the very proportion of charges: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48095118

The police have to gather enough evidence in order to refer a case to the CPS - the body that conducts criminal prosecutions in England and Wales.
But there has been an increase in the amount of evidence to consider, often from phones and social media. This has made these cases more difficult for police, prosecutors and, potentially, victims.
The context is also the large cuts in spending on the police and criminal justice system over the past decade. Cases may have been getting more complex but resources to investigate and prosecute have been reduced.


Victims' commissioner Dame Vera Baird said in her annual report that the level of prosecutions has got so low that "what we are witnessing is the de-criminalisation of rape".

She said that some victims withdrew their complaints because "they cannot face the unwarranted and unacceptable intrusion into their privacy".

"This is because many will be required to handover their mobile phones, so that the data can be downloaded to see if it has any bearing on a possible criminal prosecution."

In July 2020, the CPS and police scrapped the digital consent form that people alleging rape had been asked to sign. This form gave full access to their mobile phone data.

It followed a court case brought by the Centre for Women's Justice and an investigation by the Information Commissioner's Office.
I do get the impression that the previous practice of interrogating the victim on their sexual history has been replaced by downloading the contents of their phone.

The CPS has been bringing fewer rape prosecutions over the past few years, which is partly due to fewer referrals by police. This is thought to be in part a reaction to a fall in the number of successful convictions.

The victims' commissioner's report says: "Anecdotally, some police officers say the reason they made fewer referrals was precisely because they knew that CPS were prosecuting fewer cases after 2017."

In November 2019, it was revealed the CPS had previously had a secret conviction rate target, introduced in 2016 - that 60% of rape cases should end in a conviction. It was suggested this may have caused prosecutors to drop weaker or more challenging cases.

The CPS called it an "ambition" or "benchmark" and said it had stopped using it in 2018.

The End Violence Against Women Coalition brought a legal challenge, arguing the approach had been unlawful, but it was dismissed by the Court of Appeal on 15 March.
It seems that an attempt to make it look like the CPS was more successful has been horribly counter productive. Budget cuts may also have behind the decision.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 am
The police have to gather enough evidence in order to refer a case to the CPS - the body that conducts criminal prosecutions in England and Wales.
But there has been an increase in the amount of evidence to consider, often from phones and social media. This has made these cases more difficult for police, prosecutors and, potentially, victims.
I find this an interesting claim because it doesn't really make much sense to me. The CPS has a list of myths which include,
14. If you send sexual images or messages prior to meeting someone, then having sex is inevitable. (FALSE)
Consent to sexual activity cannot be implied from flirtatious behaviour or from the sending of a sexual image or message...

15. If you voluntarily attend someone’s house after a date or night out, you obviously want sex and constented [sic] to it by going there. (FALSE)
Consent to sexual activity cannot be implied simply by the act of someone going back to a someone’s house...

17. If you meet men online or through hook-up apps you are consenting to sex and should be ready to offer sex. (FALSE)
Consensual sexual interaction online does not automatically imply consent to offline sexual interaction...
Even if I have a string of explicit conversations on my phone with descriptions of all the sexual things we're going to do together when we meet up, that does not negate my claim of rape. It really has no bearing on my claim as far as I can see.

If I have invited you into my home, given you a cup of tea and a slice of cake and the you decide to walk out with my new laptop the fact that there are messages on my phone inviting you over doesn't negate the fact you stole from me. The text messages about how I'm going to show you my new laptop don't mean that I'm suggesting you can just take it from me. So why is it different where sex is involved?

Fortunately, the police are no longer "routinely demanding access to rape complainants’ digital data". This is a step in the right direction, though I note the use of the word "routinely" there, and also note that the article said a new, less expansive, form would be brought in in August, 4 months after the article was published with no word about what would happen in the interim. Despite the CPS trying to downplay the impact of the requirement to hand over mobile phones, the forms clearly had a chilling effect,
A woman who was raped by a stranger in London previously told The Independent she dropped her case after police demanded access to her mobile phone.

“It made me very angry, it made me feel like I was the one on trial and they were trying to seek out ways it was my fault,” Sarah* said, adding that she was concerned evidence of past one-night stands could be used against her in court.

Another woman who faced the same demand after the Metropolitan Police had identified her attacker using DNA told The Independent the investigation felt like “one intrusion after another”...

In another case, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) demanded to search the phone of a 12-year-old rape victim despite the fact the perpetrator had admitted the crime. The case was delayed for months as a result.

A different woman reported being drugged and then attacked by a group of strangers, but the case was dropped after she refused to hand over seven years of phone data.
HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate Rape Inspection Report 2019 found that requests for digital evidence increased since the National Disclosure Improvement Plan (NDIP) was introduced had increased significantly and said that,
Two of the biggest challenges for the police and CPS now are:
• to ensure that the enquiries are proportionate, so that complainants are not subjected to any more intrusion than is necessary in the circumstances of their particular case
• to ensure that people are not deterred from reporting sexual offences to the police for fear that irrelevant details of their private life will be exposed to the suspect. [p28]
And noted that,
Some prosecutors are still asking for a full download of a complainant’s or suspect’s phone [p73]
This is despite guidance published in 2018 on "reasonable lines of enquiry” and communications evidence.

Interestingly, the report found no evidence that the CPS was only going ahead with easy cases where wins were basically guaranteed, although activists condemned this conclusion, saying that it was "an insult to the many survivors of rape who have been so failed."
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 am
The police have to gather enough evidence in order to refer a case to the CPS - the body that conducts criminal prosecutions in England and Wales.
But there has been an increase in the amount of evidence to consider, often from phones and social media. This has made these cases more difficult for police, prosecutors and, potentially, victims.
I find this an interesting claim because it doesn't really make much sense to me. The CPS has a list of myths which include,
14. If you send sexual images or messages prior to meeting someone, then having sex is inevitable. (FALSE)
Consent to sexual activity cannot be implied from flirtatious behaviour or from the sending of a sexual image or message...

15. If you voluntarily attend someone’s house after a date or night out, you obviously want sex and constented [sic] to it by going there. (FALSE)
Consent to sexual activity cannot be implied simply by the act of someone going back to a someone’s house...

17. If you meet men online or through hook-up apps you are consenting to sex and should be ready to offer sex. (FALSE)
Consensual sexual interaction online does not automatically imply consent to offline sexual interaction...
Even if I have a string of explicit conversations on my phone with descriptions of all the sexual things we're going to do together when we meet up, that does not negate my claim of rape. It really has no bearing on my claim as far as I can see.

If I have invited you into my home, given you a cup of tea and a slice of cake and the you decide to walk out with my new laptop the fact that there are messages on my phone inviting you over doesn't negate the fact you stole from me. The text messages about how I'm going to show you my new laptop don't mean that I'm suggesting you can just take it from me. So why is it different where sex is involved?
I hope that they are looking for other information which could be relevant. For example corroborating the accuser's statement by doing things like checking for information which discloses their location at the time they reported having been raped.
Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 11:20 am

Fortunately, the police are no longer "routinely demanding access to rape complainants’ digital data". This is a step in the right direction, though I note the use of the word "routinely" there, and also note that the article said a new, less expansive, form would be brought in in August, 4 months after the article was published with no word about what would happen in the interim. Despite the CPS trying to downplay the impact of the requirement to hand over mobile phones, the forms clearly had a chilling effect,
A woman who was raped by a stranger in London previously told The Independent she dropped her case after police demanded access to her mobile phone.

“It made me very angry, it made me feel like I was the one on trial and they were trying to seek out ways it was my fault,” Sarah* said, adding that she was concerned evidence of past one-night stands could be used against her in court.

Another woman who faced the same demand after the Metropolitan Police had identified her attacker using DNA told The Independent the investigation felt like “one intrusion after another”...

In another case, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) demanded to search the phone of a 12-year-old rape victim despite the fact the perpetrator had admitted the crime. The case was delayed for months as a result.

A different woman reported being drugged and then attacked by a group of strangers, but the case was dropped after she refused to hand over seven years of phone data.
HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate Rape Inspection Report 2019 found that requests for digital evidence increased since the National Disclosure Improvement Plan (NDIP) was introduced had increased significantly and said that,
Two of the biggest challenges for the police and CPS now are:
• to ensure that the enquiries are proportionate, so that complainants are not subjected to any more intrusion than is necessary in the circumstances of their particular case
• to ensure that people are not deterred from reporting sexual offences to the police for fear that irrelevant details of their private life will be exposed to the suspect. [p28]
And noted that,
Some prosecutors are still asking for a full download of a complainant’s or suspect’s phone [p73]
This is despite guidance published in 2018 on "reasonable lines of enquiry” and communications evidence.

Interestingly, the report found no evidence that the CPS was only going ahead with easy cases where wins were basically guaranteed, although activists condemned this conclusion, saying that it was "an insult to the many survivors of rape who have been so failed."
Yes, its a good thing that they aren't doing it routinely. But still, this does seem to continue the practice of making the victim feel like they are the suspect.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Tue May 25, 2021 12:27 pm

If I have invited you into my home, given you a cup of tea and a slice of cake and the you decide to walk out with my new laptop the fact that there are messages on my phone inviting you over doesn't negate the fact you stole from me. The text messages about how I'm going to show you my new laptop don't mean that I'm suggesting you can just take it from me. So why is it different where sex is involved?
Really good point. But the police have historically been more concerned about protecting property than people.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Tue May 25, 2021 2:36 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 12:22 pm
I hope that they are looking for other information which could be relevant. For example corroborating the accuser's statement by doing things like checking for information which discloses their location at the time they reported having been raped.
That's a valid point. It's actually one that's mentioned in the Rape Inspection Report 2019,
Many of the staff we spoke to were keen to explain that they look to digital devices in the hope that the information will strengthen the evidence, not only to assess whether there is any undermining material. Better communication with the police would help officers explain to complainants why their phone is needed. [p89]
The phrasing of this, however, feels like searching for undermining material is the primary motivation, not least because of the context in which the National Disclosure Improvement Plan was implemented. Given that historically victims of rape have been seen as culpable for their attacks or disbelieved altogether, it seems that the National Disclosure Improvement Plan was badly designed and even more badly implemented as it presents victims with the choice very early on in the case - expose yourself, be violated again, and have your private communications scrutinised or we will not take your claims seriously.

As an aside, I came across this claim, verbatim, on many sites discussing rape,
Studies show that most rapes are premeditated i.e. they are either wholly or partially planned in advance.
Even the CPS myths page says,
Many rapes are premeditated and planned.
While I have little reason to doubt this - the idea that rape is a crime of passion, of being unable to restrain oneself is a harmful myth - it would be nice to have a source for it, yet I've failed to find these "studies" being referred to. I was wondering if anyone else would had better luck than me in finding them.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 25, 2021 7:33 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 2:36 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 12:22 pm
I hope that they are looking for other information which could be relevant. For example corroborating the accuser's statement by doing things like checking for information which discloses their location at the time they reported having been raped.
That's a valid point. It's actually one that's mentioned in the Rape Inspection Report 2019,
Many of the staff we spoke to were keen to explain that they look to digital devices in the hope that the information will strengthen the evidence, not only to assess whether there is any undermining material. Better communication with the police would help officers explain to complainants why their phone is needed. [p89]
The phrasing of this, however, feels like searching for undermining material is the primary motivation, not least because of the context in which the National Disclosure Improvement Plan was implemented. Given that historically victims of rape have been seen as culpable for their attacks or disbelieved altogether, it seems that the National Disclosure Improvement Plan was badly designed and even more badly implemented as it presents victims with the choice very early on in the case - expose yourself, be violated again, and have your private communications scrutinised or we will not take your claims seriously.
Yes, whatever the motivation, the impression will be that the police are looking to undermine the victim’s testimony.

Appearing to give the victim a choice between handing over their phone or the case being dropped will also give the impression that they are looking to clear a case as fast as possible rather than doing everything possible to investigate.

fishnut wrote: As an aside, I came across this claim, verbatim, on many sites discussing rape,
Studies show that most rapes are premeditated i.e. they are either wholly or partially planned in advance.
Even the CPS myths page says,
Many rapes are premeditated and planned.
While I have little reason to doubt this - the idea that rape is a crime of passion, of being unable to restrain oneself is a harmful myth - it would be nice to have a source for it, yet I've failed to find these "studies" being referred to. I was wondering if anyone else would had better luck than me in finding them.
You could try this review, Chapter 3.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... RR1082.pdf

As far as I remember a lot of rape perpetrators are repeat offenders (including other forms of violence against women), have very unpleasant attitudes about women, and engage in ideation. So a mixture of premeditation and opportunism seems to fit that picture.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 26, 2021 7:01 am

Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 2:36 pm
While I have little reason to doubt this - the idea that rape is a crime of passion, of being unable to restrain oneself is a harmful myth - it would be nice to have a source for it, yet I've failed to find these "studies" being referred to. I was wondering if anyone else would had better luck than me in finding them.
I also speculate that the very low conviction rate is evidence for premeditation. There obviously are problems with the criminal justice system. But it appears to me that very often the rapists are deliberately selecting victims and circumstances in which it is going to be difficult to get a conviction - eg victims who may not be believed or are unlikely to present convincing testimony in court, and circumstances in which there are no witnesses (or witnesses who'll cooperate with the police) and where forensic evidence can be explained away.

Someone who is overwhelmed by emotion isn't going to be so calculating. If rapes were 'crimes of passion' I'd expect that a lot more of the perpetrators would get caught.

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discovolante
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Wed May 26, 2021 7:39 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:01 am
Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 2:36 pm
While I have little reason to doubt this - the idea that rape is a crime of passion, of being unable to restrain oneself is a harmful myth - it would be nice to have a source for it, yet I've failed to find these "studies" being referred to. I was wondering if anyone else would had better luck than me in finding them.
I also speculate that the very low conviction rate is evidence for premeditation. There obviously are problems with the criminal justice system. But it appears to me that very often the rapists are deliberately selecting victims and circumstances in which it is going to be difficult to get a conviction - eg victims who may not be believed or are unlikely to present convincing testimony in court, and circumstances in which there are no witnesses (or witnesses who'll cooperate with the police) and where forensic evidence can be explained away.

Someone who is overwhelmed by emotion isn't going to be so calculating. If rapes were 'crimes of passion' I'd expect that a lot more of the perpetrators would get caught.
Probably, aside from all the systemic issues that prevent prosecutions from progressing to trial, which I don't think should be underestimated, they are raping their partners or at least people where there is no reason to deny sex took place, and there is little relevant physical/forensic evidence because the issue is around consent rather than whether or not it happened, so it is effectively their word against the perpetrator's. (I appreciate this includes drunken one night stands etc where predatory behaviour is relevant). Anecdotally, I was involved in defending two rape allegations when I was a trainee (one historical), both defendants were acquitted, and if we were to assume for the sake of argument that they were actually guilty, I don't think you could say either would have 'selected' the complainants, in the circumstances. If there is only oral evidence, it can be difficult to be 'sure' what happened, even if the complainant is fairly consistent in their evidence. That is, if you put aside the statistics around the likely level of false allegations (although that's a general comment rather than on those particular cases).
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 26, 2021 8:51 am

discovolante wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:39 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:01 am
Fishnut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 2:36 pm
While I have little reason to doubt this - the idea that rape is a crime of passion, of being unable to restrain oneself is a harmful myth - it would be nice to have a source for it, yet I've failed to find these "studies" being referred to. I was wondering if anyone else would had better luck than me in finding them.
I also speculate that the very low conviction rate is evidence for premeditation. There obviously are problems with the criminal justice system. But it appears to me that very often the rapists are deliberately selecting victims and circumstances in which it is going to be difficult to get a conviction - eg victims who may not be believed or are unlikely to present convincing testimony in court, and circumstances in which there are no witnesses (or witnesses who'll cooperate with the police) and where forensic evidence can be explained away.

Someone who is overwhelmed by emotion isn't going to be so calculating. If rapes were 'crimes of passion' I'd expect that a lot more of the perpetrators would get caught.
Probably, aside from all the systemic issues that prevent prosecutions from progressing to trial, which I don't think should be underestimated, they are raping their partners or at least people where there is no reason to deny sex took place, and there is little relevant physical/forensic evidence because the issue is around consent rather than whether or not it happened, so it is effectively their word against the perpetrator's. (I appreciate this includes drunken one night stands etc where predatory behaviour is relevant).
Yes, intimate partner violence will be different. But overall, I agree, the victims are most commonly known to the perpetrator. In a wider circle of friends and acquaintances that means the perpetrator will be able to have much more opportunities than a complete stranger, and assume that they can claim that it was consensual.
discovolante wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:39 am
Anecdotally, I was involved in defending two rape allegations when I was a trainee (one historical), both defendants were acquitted, and if we were to assume for the sake of argument that they were actually guilty, I don't think you could say either would have 'selected' the complainants, in the circumstances. If there is only oral evidence, it can be difficult to be 'sure' what happened, even if the complainant is fairly consistent in their evidence. That is, if you put aside the statistics around the likely level of false allegations (although that's a general comment rather than on those particular cases).
Fair enough. I'm just speculating based upon what is known about the characteristics of the victims who don't appear to be a random cross section from society. So I was assuming that there were elements of opportunism and premeditation on the part of the perpetrators. But other things could be going on as well.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:25 am

PC Wayne Couzens has pleaded guilty to kidnapping and rape of Sarah Everard.

He has also "accepted responsibility" for her death but there's nothing about a murder/manslaughter charge in the articles I've seen so far. According to a reporter,
The court at the Old Bailey heard Wayne Couzens accepts responsibility for Sarah Everard’s killing, but was not asked to enter a plea to a charge of murder.
I don't understand why and I can't find any answers so far so if anyone knows what's going on please explain!
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:08 am

Just heard that on the radio. Seems odd.
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