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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:14 am
by Woodchopper
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:25 am
PC Wayne Couzens has pleaded guilty to kidnapping and rape of Sarah Everard.

He has also "accepted responsibility" for her death but there's nothing about a murder/manslaughter charge in the articles I've seen so far. According to a reporter,
The court at the Old Bailey heard Wayne Couzens accepts responsibility for Sarah Everard’s killing, but was not asked to enter a plea to a charge of murder.
I don't understand why and I can't find any answers so far so if anyone knows what's going on please explain!
According to the interwebs
The murder charge wasn't put to Wayne Couzens today because the defence team are awaiting medical reports they have commissioned. Originally the plea date was set for July with the provisional trial due in October
https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/sta ... 18753?s=20

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am
by Fishnut
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:14 am
According to the interwebs

The murder charge wasn't put to Wayne Couzens today because the defence team are awaiting medical reports they have commissioned. Originally the plea date was set for July with the provisional trial due in October

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/sta ... 18753?s=20
Thank you. That tweet hadn't been written when I posted and I hadn't looked again.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:35 pm
by Gfamily
Reporting has been limited to the bare bones to reduce the chance of "a substantial risk of prejudice to the administration of justice"

https://twitter.com/DBanksy/status/1402 ... 23619?s=20

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:39 am
by Tessa K
A cyclist who confronted a man after he shouted lewd comments out of his car at her has spoken of the barrage of daily harassment faced by women.Nanw Beard was cycling in Cardiff when the driver pulled up alongside her and said her "backside was going to cause an accident".

The 30-year-old said just hours earlier another man said he wanted to have sex with her while she was out on her bike.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57427696

And f.ck you to the driver who nearly ran me over on a zebra crossing yesterday and then the (male) passenger shouted a load of abuse at me.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:28 am
by Grumble
A super-complaint is being made against 15 police forces.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other

It’s a good idea to bring them together and demonstrate a pattern rather than allowing individual police forces to claim “a bad apple”.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:42 am
by Aoui
I read this today in the Guardian. The thought that someone could just have sex with you in your sleep and not know it just freaks me the hell out. I mean, just your boyfriend or husband...and that some people get off on this....ick!!! https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... s-bedrooms

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:45 pm
by Tessa K
Aoui wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:42 am
I read this today in the Guardian. The thought that someone could just have sex with you in your sleep and not know it just freaks me the hell out. I mean, just your boyfriend or husband...and that some people get off on this....ick!!! https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... s-bedrooms
Horrible. Surely he must have drugged her even if he didn't admit it or she would have woken up at some point.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:54 am
by Tessa K
tom p wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:38 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:33 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:29 pm

Indeed that was the point - the mould goes into the wood.
My point was more that it's the other way round - good people go bad because the system is set up badly. We need a new system.
The mould goes into the wood from the bad apple & then if affects all other apples into the future.
The concept of having a police force isn't inherently bad, ergo the barrel was not made with bad wood. But letting the bad apples remain has made the wood bad and now it needs replacing as it affects even good apples placed therein.
Fascinating though this conversation about wood and apples is, it might be more appropriate in the thread on institutional police corruption

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2536

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:13 am
by Woodchopper
Tessa K wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:54 am
tom p wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:38 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:33 pm


My point was more that it's the other way round - good people go bad because the system is set up badly. We need a new system.
The mould goes into the wood from the bad apple & then if affects all other apples into the future.
The concept of having a police force isn't inherently bad, ergo the barrel was not made with bad wood. But letting the bad apples remain has made the wood bad and now it needs replacing as it affects even good apples placed therein.
Fascinating though this conversation about wood and apples is, it might be more appropriate in the thread on institutional police corruption

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2536
Good point. Any objections if I were to move the posts?

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:28 pm
by Woodchopper
Woodchopper wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:13 am
Tessa K wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:54 am
tom p wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:38 pm

The mould goes into the wood from the bad apple & then if affects all other apples into the future.
The concept of having a police force isn't inherently bad, ergo the barrel was not made with bad wood. But letting the bad apples remain has made the wood bad and now it needs replacing as it affects even good apples placed therein.
Fascinating though this conversation about wood and apples is, it might be more appropriate in the thread on institutional police corruption

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2536
Good point. Any objections if I were to move the posts?
There were no objections so I've moved posts on police corruption over to the police corruption thread
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2536&p=85276

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:55 am
by Tessa K
Yet again we get an 'apology' for the police and justice system failing rape victims. It's so much easier to say 'we should do better' than to actually do anything.
Justice Secretary Robert Buckland has apologised to rape victims for low conviction rates in England and Wales and promised to "do a lot better". In an exclusive BBC interview, he said it was "not good enough" and admitted budget cuts were partly to blame.

Rape convictions have fallen to a record low in recent years.

The government said it was now considering allowing victims to pre-record their evidence to spare them the trauma of a courtroom trial. Its review also outlined plans to focus more on the suspect's behaviour - not the accuser's, and make sure phones taken away for evidence-gathering were returned within a day.

The review was met with mixed responses, with one rape charity saying it was a missed opportunity and failed to identify any big commitments that would radically and swiftly improve rape victims' experience.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57511425

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:45 pm
by cvb
I do not if this is the right place, move it if you wish, but f.ck me.

Cosby not guilty

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 pm
by Woodchopper
cvb wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:45 pm
I do not if this is the right place, move it if you wish, but f.ck me.

Cosby not guilty
Important to note that prosecution was overturned on a legal technicality and the judges didn't consider whether or not Cosby was a rapist.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:02 pm
by Fishnut
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 pm
cvb wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:45 pm
I do not if this is the right place, move it if you wish, but f.ck me.

Cosby not guilty
Important to note that prosecution was overturned on a legal technicality and the judges didn't consider whether or not Cosby was a rapist.
While that is important it's also a massive f.ck you to the women who were assaulted by him. What on earth was the DA thinking, giving him immunity for his testimony?! Why bother interviewing him if you're never going to be able to do anything with it? Technicality or no, this is a massive injustice.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:07 pm
by cvb
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 pm
cvb wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:45 pm
I do not if this is the right place, move it if you wish, but f.ck me.

Cosby not guilty
Important to note that prosecution was overturned on a legal technicality and the judges didn't consider whether or not Cosby was a rapist.
He still did all the things but he is also innocent.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:51 pm
by Woodchopper
Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:02 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 pm
cvb wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:45 pm
I do not if this is the right place, move it if you wish, but f.ck me.

Cosby not guilty
Important to note that prosecution was overturned on a legal technicality and the judges didn't consider whether or not Cosby was a rapist.
While that is important it's also a massive f.ck you to the women who were assaulted by him. What on earth was the DA thinking, giving him immunity for his testimony?! Why bother interviewing him if you're never going to be able to do anything with it? Technicality or no, this is a massive injustice.
Yes, it does look very bad. A guilty man is now free.

As for what the DA was doing, this article provides an explanation: https://www.vox.com/22557691/bill-cosby ... al-assault

Basically, a commitment not to prosecute was made so that Cosby could be compelled to give evidence in a civil trial in which he was successfully sued by Andrea Constand. He was later prosecuted for sexually assaulting Constand (and that prosecution has been overturned).

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:37 pm
by Fishnut
That's useful context, thanks.

You put it very succinctly, a guilty man is now free. And his supporters, and those who just hate women, will use it to pretend he was innocent and the allegations were false. It's already happening. We Hunted The Mammoth this morning had a brief roundup of some of the gloating (no link I'm afraid as I'm on my phone).

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:22 pm
by jimbob
The whole idea of statutes of limitations for violent and coercive crimes is obscene in my view.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:35 am
by Martin_B
cvb wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:07 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 pm
cvb wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:45 pm
I do not if this is the right place, move it if you wish, but f.ck me.

Cosby not guilty
Important to note that prosecution was overturned on a legal technicality and the judges didn't consider whether or not Cosby was a rapist.
He still did all the things but he is also innocent.
He still did all the things but he has not been found guilty. (A small but important difference which should be mentioned whenever he tries to re-emerge into society.)

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:12 am
by Bird on a Fire
I don't fully understand why people have a constitutional right against self incrimination - what's so important about protecting criminals?

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:25 am
by Woodchopper
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:12 am
I don't fully understand why people have a constitutional right against self incrimination - what's so important about protecting criminals?
It’s similar to the right to remain silent in the UK and some other states with common law legal systems.

The rationale for both is to try to prevent convictions based upon confessions that were obtained via torture, mistreatment or threats to do so. If someone can’t be compelled to incriminate themselves it becomes harder to use torture make them confess in court.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:13 pm
by Fishnut
Opening Arguments has a very detailed breakdown of the decision to release Cosby in their latest episode - segment starts at 7:09 and lasts most of the episode. The "commitment not to prosecute" was merely a press statement where the DA at the time said they weren't going to go ahead with any prosecutions to allow civil suits to proceed. It was never formalised, it was just a verbal promise from that DA to exercise his prosecutorial discretion. It also wasn't the only way to get him to forgo pleading the 5th. It sounds like the Court has made a major mistake and it won't be overturned. The only recourse left is civil prosecutions and it sounds like more will happen now, so the best potential outcome is for his victims to bleed him dry.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:43 am
by Millennie Al
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:12 am
I don't fully understand why people have a constitutional right against self incrimination - what's so important about protecting criminals?
The importance is in protecting the innocent. The state is extremely powerful and history shows that innocent people have frequently fallen victim to abuses which can only be addressed by strong protections.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:16 pm
by tom p
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:13 pm
Opening Arguments has a very detailed breakdown of the decision to release Cosby in their latest episode - segment starts at 7:09 and lasts most of the episode. The "commitment not to prosecute" was merely a press statement where the DA at the time said they weren't going to go ahead with any prosecutions to allow civil suits to proceed. It was never formalised, it was just a verbal promise from that DA to exercise his prosecutorial discretion. It also wasn't the only way to get him to forgo pleading the 5th. It sounds like the Court has made a major mistake and it won't be overturned. The only recourse left is civil prosecutions and it sounds like more will happen now, so the best potential outcome is for his victims to bleed him dry.
The Vox article that woodchopper linked to had a different conclusion.
In brief Cosby & his lawyers relied on this press statement & thus he didn't plead the 5th in his civil suit.
The evidence gained from him talking in that civil suit was used in the prosecution of him.
Thus this conviction was quashed because it relied on improperly obtained testimony from the accused.
But it doesn't mean that there can't be other prosecutions for his other crimes; however they would presumably avoid using the information used in this court case & would instead use other evidence. Hopefully in 2021 evidence of 50-odd women all describing a similar pattern of behaviour will actually be listened to, the way it wouldn't have been in 2005.

Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:57 pm
by Woodchopper
tom p wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:16 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:13 pm
Opening Arguments has a very detailed breakdown of the decision to release Cosby in their latest episode - segment starts at 7:09 and lasts most of the episode. The "commitment not to prosecute" was merely a press statement where the DA at the time said they weren't going to go ahead with any prosecutions to allow civil suits to proceed. It was never formalised, it was just a verbal promise from that DA to exercise his prosecutorial discretion. It also wasn't the only way to get him to forgo pleading the 5th. It sounds like the Court has made a major mistake and it won't be overturned. The only recourse left is civil prosecutions and it sounds like more will happen now, so the best potential outcome is for his victims to bleed him dry.
But it doesn't mean that there can't be other prosecutions for his other crimes; however they would presumably avoid using the information used in this court case & would instead use other evidence. Hopefully in 2021 evidence of 50-odd women all describing a similar pattern of behaviour will actually be listened to, the way it wouldn't have been in 2005.
The problem is the statute of limitations. The criminal prosecution for sexually assaulting Andrea Constand was started just before the statute of limitations ran out. As far as I know its too late for the other victims.