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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:22 pm
by purplehaze
sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:13 pm
People like Wayne Couzens are mercifully very rare. I think an interesting angle to investigate would be whether this was linked to his steroid use because steroid use is less common (and easier to check) than whether or not a person views p.rnography.
This small study does suggest a link between exaggerated sexual behaviours and steroid use
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4646078/
Oh give over. Don't scrape the barrel to support the use of p.rn to satisfy your orgasm.
I've been exposed to, my sisters have been exposed to as have both my daughters, in school - all by strangers. Exposure is not rare and should be taken very seriously as it is an escalating crime.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:32 pm
by sheldrake
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:22 pm
Oh give over. Don't scrape the barrel to support the use of p.rn to satisfy your orgasm.
I think most p.rn is degrading and wrong, but that's not the same as being sure it's the cause of the kind of crimes we're talking about in this thread (I'm more concerned about the effect on the women making it than the people viewing it).
I've been exposed to, my sisters have been exposed to as have both my daughters, in school - all by strangers. Exposure is not rare and should be taken very seriously as it is an escalating crime.
I'm very sorry for your sisters and daughters, but I don't think you can conclude from that that p.rnography was the cause.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:41 pm
by purplehaze
sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:32 pm
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:22 pm
Oh give over. Don't scrape the barrel to support the use of p.rn to satisfy your orgasm.
I think most p.rn is degrading and wrong, but that's not the same as being sure it's the cause of the kind of crimes we're talking about in this thread (I'm more concerned about the effect on the women making it than the people viewing it).
I've been exposed to, my sisters have been exposed to as have both my daughters, in school - all by strangers. Exposure is not rare and should be taken very seriously as it is an escalating crime.
I'm very sorry for your sisters and daughters, but I don't think you can conclude from that that p.rnography was the cause.
But not for me. That old canard re p.rn. Really, you need to change the record. Next up: watching the brilliant and fantastic Squid Game doesn't mean children will engage in killing each other in the playground.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:45 pm
by sheldrake
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:41 pm
But not for me. That old canard re p.rn. Really, you need to change the record. Next up: watching the brilliant and fantastic Squid Game doesn't mean children will engage in killing each other in the playground.
Of course I'm sorry for you. I don't even understand this reply. Change what record?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:53 pm
by purplehaze
sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:45 pm
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:41 pm
But not for me. That old canard re p.rn. Really, you need to change the record. Next up: watching the brilliant and fantastic Squid Game doesn't mean children will engage in killing each other in the playground.
Of course I'm sorry for you. I don't even understand this reply. Change what record?
Steroids.
It's p.rn, and of course not all men who watch p.rn, which is no longer about cheeky sneaks at boobs or a bum and vulva, but about going straight into strangling and anal, will go on to kill women. However, you can bet that those who do kill women will have watched violent p.rn.
I know men and women who, like myself, watched p.rn and didn't like it.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:56 pm
by sheldrake
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:53 pm
Steroids.
It's p.rn, and of course not all men who watch p.rn, which is no longer about cheeky sneaks at boobs or a bum and vulva, but about going straight into strangling and anal, will go on to kill women.
Do you think this effect started with the spread of internet access, or is it more recent?
I'm not sure why steroids couldn't be a contributing factor here, they do seem to effect both aggression and sexual behaviour.
However, you can bet that those who do kill women will have watched violent p.rn
Probably true, but is it a cause or a symptom?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:24 pm
by JQH
sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:32 pm
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:22 pm
Oh give over. Don't scrape the barrel to support the use of p.rn to satisfy your orgasm.
I think most p.rn is degrading and wrong, but that's not the same as being sure it's the cause of the kind of crimes we're talking about in this thread (I'm more concerned about the effect on the women making it than the people viewing it).
I've been exposed to, my sisters have been exposed to as have both my daughters, in school - all by strangers. Exposure is not rare and should be taken very seriously as it is an escalating crime.
I'm very sorry for your sisters and daughters, but I don't think you can conclude from that that p.rnography was the cause.
Maybe not a simple cause but likely a risk factor. Like smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:30 pm
by sheldrake
JQH wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:24 pm
Maybe not a simple cause but likely a risk factor. Like smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer.
I don't think we have established anything like as close a link between p.rn and sexual assault as we have between smoking and lung cancer yet.
It might be worth looking at the incidence or rape in cultures that
don't have as much access to sexual imagery as people in the developed world.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:31 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
I'm not really sure that there is such a strong link between even violent p.rnography and male murder of women. Maybe there is - I could well be wrong - but men have been assaulting, raping, kidnapping and murdering women for a very, very long time, and the accessibility of violent p.rn is, comparatively, very recent. I'd agree with those who are concerned about the impact of that type of p.rn on the people who watch it, particularly adolescent boys and young men, but more because they're likely to have a damaged and warped sense of what good sex is, rather than because they're more likely to commit crimes.
Surely violence is something instead about the male psyche, and about how a proportion of men end up doing very violent things? Because almost all violent people are men. What is it about this proportion of men and how close are the rest of us (men) to being the same as them?
Contradicting myself, I wonder if there's something there about having a mental structure of self control when it comes to violence (either reactive or carefully planned, like Sarah Everard's murderer), which because of various reasons can be weakened or not exist? I could see how violent p.rn could contribute to the weakening of that self control.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:35 pm
by noggins
JQH wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:24 pm
Maybe not a simple cause but likely a risk factor. Like smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer.
Or like smoking is a risk factor for heroin addiction
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm
by purplehaze
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:31 pm
I'm not really sure that there is such a strong link between even violent p.rnography and male murder of women. Maybe there is - I could well be wrong - but men have been assaulting, raping, kidnapping and murdering women for a very, very long time, and the accessibility of violent p.rn is, comparatively, very recent. I'd agree with those who are concerned about the impact of that type of p.rn on the people who watch it, particularly adolescent boys and young men, but more because they're likely to have a damaged and warped sense of what good sex is, rather than because they're more likely to commit crimes.
Surely violence is something instead about the male psyche, and about how a proportion of men end up doing very violent things? Because almost all violent people are men. What is it about this proportion of men and how close are the rest of us (men) to being the same as them?
Contradicting myself, I wonder if there's something there about having a mental structure of self control when it comes to violence (either reactive or carefully planned, like Sarah Everard's murderer), which because of various reasons can be weakened or not exist? I could see how violent p.rn could contribute to the weakening of that self control.
The murder of Sarah Everard was violent as was the disposal of her body. The man who did this watched violent p.rnography, but no doubt started off on the soft stuff.
In my experience, the men who were great in bed didn't watch pron habitually. Those who were rubbish, did. I'm 60 so I've had the experience, especially in my 20s before I settled down.
So p.rn and violent p.rn did exist in the 80s. It was available in VHS and with one man I knew the couples would get together with car keys - I politely declined. It was going on a lot and the most vulnerable were harmed by several men at once and of course she wasn't believed. I got out of that relationship pdq.
To think that violent p.rn is an escalation due to the onset of the internet is nonsense. It's always been there. Women have always been used, from tender ages onwards. There was even a debate in the houses of Parliament at the beginning of the last century about the raising of consent to sex for girls to rise from 13 to 16 and the strongly supported argument against was how would men cope with this?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:52 am
by sheldrake
What makes you sure the p.rnography is a cause, rather than a symptom, of a sick mind ?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:41 am
by Tessa K
Haven't we had this discussion about p.rn and violence several times before? Perhaps the thread could be split.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:46 am
by plodder
Tessa - yes, I agree, a split seems sensible.
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm
So p.rn and violent p.rn did exist in the 80s. It was available in VHS and with one man I knew the couples would get together with car keys - I politely declined. It was going on a lot and the most vulnerable were harmed by several men at once and of course she wasn't believed. I got out of that relationship pdq.
To think that violent p.rn is an escalation due to the onset of the internet is nonsense. It's always been there. Women have always been used, from tender ages onwards. There was even a debate in the houses of Parliament at the beginning of the last century about the raising of consent to sex for girls to rise from 13 to 16 and the strongly supported argument against was how would men cope with this?
This is a fair point but it doesn't address the point that p.rn is infinitely easier to get hold of than it used to be. We can watch any type of p.rn, within seconds of deciding to do so, from anywhere on the planet, and this is new, and I'm not sure we see the effect from this - I'd have expected some sort of cultural bow wave.
Similarly, to make a less emotive example, we see an explosion in the availability of cheap or free musical tuition online - you can now literally learn advanced technique on any instrument. But we don't see a similar explosion in the numbers of extremely proficient musicians - maybe a few more, but thwarted musicians are still, on the whole, thwarted. Similarly cooking, crafting etc. Importantly - these videos get millions of views.
The "enthusiasts" benefit, but the general public (for want of a better word) treat it as entertainment.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:18 am
by lpm
Absolutely not. There hasn't been much previous discussion on this forum about p.rnography and violence. Splitting a thread would be concluding there's no link to male violence and harassment. The p.rnography apologists repeatedly try to divorce the topic from real world outcomes.
It might well be that p.rnography is a symptom not a cause. But if p.rnography does not normalise/endorse assaults and harassment, then it would be very hard to conclude that misogynistic comments on a WhatsApp group normalise. The telling of rape jokes is another popular target - we've all come to the assumption that we shouldn't tell jokes, laugh at them or let them go past without condemnation because when predatory men hear them they feel it's normal behaviour. But no way is a joke going to have a negative impact if endless non-consent videos from MindGeek are excused.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:32 am
by sheldrake
My reason for disapproving of rape jokes is different. It’s not that I think they cause rapes, but that they would be extremely upsetting to anybody who has been sexually assaulted or had a loved one assaulted. And literally anybody you encounter could be in that position. You might have known them for years without them raising it.
I suspect the primary cause of sexual assaults and rapes would be pretty deep seated in the offender’s upbringing (and possibly even neurology in some cases). People with these kind of psychological issues might view p.rn obsessively as a symptom.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:35 am
by plodder
No, because there is loads of “trivial” sexual assault so there’s definitely an important role in not normalising stuff by joking about it. Similarly I don’t tell racist jokes even when no ethnic minorities are present for fear of offending someone - I don’t tell them because I’m not a c.nt.
Almost all my female friends have been groped. (I suspect it’s almost, I’ve not heard from all of them...)
eta so it’s definitely about not normalising this stuff, rather than not upsetting potential victims.
Sex positive p.rn is definitely a thing and should be promoted IMO
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:44 am
by bob sterman
purplehaze wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm
To think that violent p.rn is an escalation due to the onset of the internet is nonsense. It's always been there.
Violent p.rn has always been around. But an important difference is that 40-50 years ago - teenagers were much less likely to encounter it.
Back then a teenager might find a magazine, discarded or belonging to an older male relative. Or even a VHS. But these typically didn't contain some of the things they can now access with a click, on their phones.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:51 am
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:35 am
No, because there is loads of “trivial” sexual assault so there’s definitely an important role in not normalising stuff by joking about it. Similarly I don’t tell racist jokes even when no ethnic minorities are present for fear of offending someone - I don’t tell them because I’m not a c.nt.
Almost all my female friends have been groped. (I suspect it’s almost, I’ve not heard from all of them...)
eta so it’s definitely about not normalising this stuff, rather than not upsetting potential victims.
I take the point about racist jokes, it's not just about who might be listening but revulsion for the sentiment expressed, but we are looking for causal relationships here; I don't yet see a strong connection between availability of p.rnography and the incidence of rape.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:04 am
by lpm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:32 am
My reason for disapproving of rape jokes is different. It’s not that I think they cause rapes, but that they would be extremely upsetting to anybody who has been sexually assaulted or had a loved one assaulted. And literally anybody you encounter could be in that position. You might have known them for years without them raising it.
I suspect the primary cause of sexual assaults and rapes would be pretty deep seated in the offender’s upbringing (and possibly even neurology in some cases). People with these kind of psychological issues might view p.rn obsessively as a symptom.
Right, it's not just the impact on men of men watching p.rnography. If a joke could upset victims, you'd also have to acknowledge that someone groped on a train is going to be upset that men watch videos of women being fictionally groped on a train and she becomes eager for sex as a result.
Sadly it doesn't take 13 year old girls long go from being sexually harassed on the street, to learning that boys and men watch videos of men having sex with women dressed in school uniform, to learning that these websites have videos of women dressed in school uniform being subjected to violent sex or non-consensual sex or multiple partners. In fact it's quite likely that boys at school will show them these videos on their phones as part of bullying or harassing behaviour.
It's very easy to fall into the default-male trap and consider only the impact on men and male offenders. It's not just whether it makes men assault or harass. It's also whether it damages women and adds to the constraints on public life that they're forced to impose on themselves. For example the favoured misogynistic abuse sent online to women come straight from p.rnography - "choke on my cock bitch" and the like.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:25 am
by plodder
lpm (and others) do you accept there is such a thing as ethical p.rn? If so, can we focus the debate on the non-ethical stuff (which is clearly the majority)? Or is it p.rn per se? It would just help focus things a bit.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:39 am
by lpm
Who cares? If it's 1% "ethical" and 99% the MindGeek stuff, why bother making a split?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:41 am
by plodder
lpm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:39 am
Who cares? If it's 1% "ethical" and 99% the MindGeek stuff, why bother making a split?
Because ethical p.rn potentially shows a useful route forward.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:58 am
by sheldrake
The definition of 'ethical' will be hard. Things that seem like innocent consensual erotica to one group will be triggering and distressing for somebody, somewhere.
Right, it's not just the impact on men of men watching p.rnography. If a joke could upset victims, you'd also have to acknowledge that someone groped on a train is going to be upset that men watch videos of women being fictionally groped on a train and she becomes eager for sex as a result.
It would also be distressing to learn that there were men who just imagine those scenarios too, wouldn't it? I think there's a distinction between telling a joke/showing p.rnography to a group, and what happens in private, but with two provisos
a) the impact on the performers in these fantasies (to me it seems like they're the ones in the greatest danger of harm, but I could be wrong)
b) whether there's a causal link to changes in behaviour of the viewers
the train scenario could breach both of those conditions, but it may not.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:12 am
by plodder
the ethics are not so much to do with triggering as to do with presenting something that is sex positive, progressive, with clear consent from actors, realistic depictions of bodies etc.