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Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:25 am
by bjn
One take is that it depends on how it affects people. Do women feel intimidated by people singing it at games? Has it normalised violence against women? I have no idea how you discover any of that.
Another take is that it’s simply inappropriate to sing songs about murdering women at football matches and be done with it.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:35 am
by Grumble
bjn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:25 am
One take is that it depends on how it affects people. Do women feel intimidated by people singing it at games? Has it normalised violence against women? I have no idea how you discover any of that.
Another take is that it’s simply inappropriate to sing songs about murdering women at football matches and be done with it.
I wouldn’t have had any idea that the song involved violence if it wasn’t for this article. But then again I don’t know the lyrics apart from “why why why Delilah”
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:52 am
by tenchboy
Having read the lyrics through as if they were a news report, no doubts whatsoever: totally inappropriate.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:25 am
by Opti
It's a pretty disgusting song and I doubt it would have been a hit were it not for Tom Jones.
It shows that the world has moved on when considering it won an Ivor Novello award that it almost certainly wouldn't now.
OTOH, I think banning it will just pour flames on the 'culture war'. Better to ram the lyrics down peoples throats. It's a song that won't be forgotten quickly, that's for sure.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:26 am
by Grumble
Grumble wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:35 am
bjn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:25 am
One take is that it depends on how it affects people. Do women feel intimidated by people singing it at games? Has it normalised violence against women? I have no idea how you discover any of that.
Another take is that it’s simply inappropriate to sing songs about murdering women at football matches and be done with it.
I wouldn’t have had any idea that the song involved violence if it wasn’t for this article. But then again I don’t know the lyrics apart from “why why why Delilah”
Well I’ve educated myself now, and wow, what a sh.tty song. Do Stoke City fans still sing it as “their” song?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:27 pm
by Tessa K
It is a good tune so maybe the fans could change the lyrics to something football/rugby related?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:58 pm
by Grumble
Tessa K wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:27 pm
It is a good tune so maybe the fans could change the lyrics to something football/rugby related?
There aren’t many songs that are sung unaltered, and those that are it’s normally just the chorus. Those that are sung in full might be problematic for other reasons
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:05 pm
by Trinucleus
Just wondering whether any operas or ballets have a similar theme...
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:18 pm
by tenchboy
Nick Cave is currently busy.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:31 pm
by shpalman
Trinucleus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:05 pm
Just wondering whether any operas or ballets have a similar theme...
How many opera arias get sung at football matches? Apart from
nessun dorma that is.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:35 pm
by bjn
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:18 pm
Nick Cave is currently busy.
No one is singing “Pappa Won’t Leave You Henry”, or “Where the Wild Roses Grow” at football matches.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:41 pm
by tenchboy
bjn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:35 pm
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:18 pm
Nick Cave is currently busy.
No one is singing “Pappa Won’t Leave You Henry”, or “Where the Wild Roses Grow” at football matches.
I was thinking beyond football matches. There is going to be a point where you have to say this sh.t is not a suitable subject for a song regardless of where it is being sung.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:47 pm
by shpalman
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:41 pm
bjn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:35 pm
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:18 pm
Nick Cave is currently busy.
No one is singing “Pappa Won’t Leave You Henry”, or “Where the Wild Roses Grow” at football matches.
I was thinking beyond football matches. There is going to be a point where you have to say this sh.t is not a suitable subject for a song regardless of where it is being sung.
No we aren't. There's a place for art which recounts unpleasant stories. But that place is not crowd songs at sports matches.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:53 am
by Tessa K
shpalman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:47 pm
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:41 pm
bjn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:35 pm
No one is singing “Pappa Won’t Leave You Henry”, or “Where the Wild Roses Grow” at football matches.
I was thinking beyond football matches. There is going to be a point where you have to say this sh.t is not a suitable subject for a song regardless of where it is being sung.
No we aren't. There's a place for art which recounts unpleasant stories. But that place is not crowd songs at sports matches.
Agreed. As the article I linked to discusses.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:41 pm
by bjn
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:41 pm
bjn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:35 pm
tenchboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:18 pm
Nick Cave is currently busy.
No one is singing “Pappa Won’t Leave You Henry”, or “Where the Wild Roses Grow” at football matches.
I was thinking beyond football matches. There is going to be a point where you have to say this sh.t is not a suitable subject for a song regardless of where it is being sung.
What the other said. Just because they didn’t sing Nick Cave’s most gruesome murder ballads or NWA’s “f.ck tha Police” in my daughters’ reception class does not mean that we are on a slippery slope.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:25 pm
by Tessa K
Using deception to get sex is being proposed as a new crime
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -deception
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:49 pm
by noggins
I think thats a stupid proposal. Undercover cops should be dealt with by a specific law, and everyone else: caveat emptor.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:58 pm
by Grumble
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:49 pm
I think thats a stupid proposal. Undercover cops should be dealt with by a specific law, and everyone else: caveat emptor.
This isn’t the police thread. It seems like a sensible suggestion to me, in general people get away with deception too easily but it’s especially egregious when it comes to a couple of issues, and sex is one of those. Medical treatments is another, but this isn’t the thread for that.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:33 pm
by Tessa K
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:49 pm
I think thats a stupid proposal. Undercover cops should be dealt with by a specific law, and everyone else: caveat emptor.
Caveat emptor? Abusers are very good at picking their targets. Don't blame the victims.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:43 pm
by noggins
Would you send someone to jail for lying about their contraceptive status or religious beliefs?
Jail abusers for abuse, not for lying .
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:57 pm
by Tessa K
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:43 pm
Would you send someone to jail for lying about their contraceptive status or religious beliefs?
Jail abusers for abuse, not for lying .
Read the article. Stealthing would be included. Other things that are serious hard limits too, especially if done repeatedly as part of abusive control. Lying is a big part of coercive control, often.
What lies do you think are acceptable in order to get sex?
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:12 pm
by noggins
My problem with that is the "get sex" bit, as if sex is something to be 'got' out of someone without desires or agency of their own.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:24 pm
by Tessa K
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:12 pm
My problem with that is the "get sex" bit, as if sex is something to be 'got' out of someone without desires or agency of their own.
Sadly, some people's desires can be manipulated or abused and some vulnerable people don't always have full agency. Also, stealthing is all about transgressing consent.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:28 pm
by Tessa K
noggins wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:12 pm
My problem with that is the "get sex" bit, as if sex is something to be 'got' out of someone without desires or agency of their own.
On second thoughts your Caveat emptor should have been the red flag so I'm not prepared to discuss this any further with you.
Re: Male violence and harassment of women
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:40 pm
by noggins
Have a nice day too.