Reactions to protests

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lpm
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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by lpm » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:12 pm
That's fair. How do you think we should deal with violent people at protests?

I expect, FWIW, that some of them are sincere in their support for the cause and some are troublemakers. (Don't forget that this protest was about the new policing bill in general - the right to assembly, traveller communities, expanding police powers generally, as well as women's safety)

How do you think we should drive them away?
Same as on the other thread: not easy but need to change the norms and what's standard acceptable behaviour. What do you do at a vigil when someone hijacks it with a megaphone? He was booed and told to f.ck off, which he didn't expect and looked pissed off about, but he didn't stop. Later people like him went on to abuse the police and do the usual bit of petty vandalism on police vehicles.

It might seem like booing him was a failed effort, but perhaps it's one more inching forward in the miles we need to go? Surely it's better than offering him support and justification? These men consider themselves heroes - parading up and down in those silly Guy Fawkes masks - and isn't it up to our side to make it 100% unambiguously clear that they're not?
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by JQH » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:18 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 am
lpm wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:39 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:45 am
lpm: What if we raged on behalf of the machine?
Yes, you have come up with a good way to put it. For some, the objective is the rage. Doesn't really matter to them whether they are raging for or against some random thing.
I think it's quite unlikely that they'd rally in support of removing the right to protest. Graffitiïng "Somebody Stop Me!" on a police station, perhaps?

It is quite odd to see somebody who spent so much time criticising and mocking the Trump regime parroting exactly the same talking points about "bussed-in antifa terrorists" that were used to discredit protests in the USA.

Of the thousands and thousands of people who've demonstrated against this bill, how many of them do you think fit your profile of random ragers, and why are you more focused on them than the well-intentioned majority?

Has a year locked down in the shires turned you into a Tory? ;)
Just watched Peterloo. The excuses cops use for attacking protestors today sound remarkably like the excuses the magistrates used for sending soldiers to attack protestors 200 years ago.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:06 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:12 pm
That's fair. How do you think we should deal with violent people at protests?
The police should arrest them. Protesters and police are not equals, and are not supposed to be. Police are supposed to be professionals whose job it is to uphold the law. Protesters are just a bunch of random people. most of whom have some form of common complaint. There is no reason why the protesters should be more law abiding than any other group of people, and it's the job of the police to locate and deal with any violence and lawbreaking. Just as if a fight broke out in a crowded street outside a pub you would expect any police in the vicinity to identify who is breaking the law and deal with them. This means that the police can and should be held to a higher standard than the protesters. While anyone noticing lawbreaking may have a general civic duty to help stop it, it's the professionals who should have the training and means to be more successful at it.

The police should be aware that in any large group of protesters, it is likely that there are a few people who are hoping for violence and some even prepared to initiate it. The police should be aiming to deal with these people as individuals, while remaining non-anatagonistic towards those who are not trying to make trouble. One of the reasons for body-cams and suchlike is to try to deal with troublemakers within the police as there is always a risk that some are present. The nature of policing is that police officers are accustomed to the risk of criminals attacking them and are going to assume that if they see someone attacking a fellow officer they should assist the officer rather than immediately start an open-minded investigation into whether it's actually self-defence, which is why violence can escalate so quickly.
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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by jdc » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:28 pm

Vertigowooyay wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:54 pm
Police retract claims that officers suffered broken bones at Bristol protest
The Guardian has contacted Avon and Somerset police for clarification on why these claims were made and to request a list of the injuries sustained by officers policing Sunday night’s protest. The force had not replied by the time of publication.
Speaking of Avon and Somerset police... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... lice-raids

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Fishnut » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:43 pm

jdc wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:28 pm
Vertigowooyay wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:54 pm
Police retract claims that officers suffered broken bones at Bristol protest
The Guardian has contacted Avon and Somerset police for clarification on why these claims were made and to request a list of the injuries sustained by officers policing Sunday night’s protest. The force had not replied by the time of publication.
Speaking of Avon and Somerset police... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... lice-raids
Holy f.ck

The change from last summer is really quite horrifying. During the BLM protests they were hands-off and proportionate in their response. Then they got a bollocking from Priti Patel and this is the result.
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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:05 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:43 pm
jdc wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:28 pm
Speaking of Avon and Somerset police... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... lice-raids
Holy f.ck

The change from last summer is really quite horrifying. During the BLM protests they were hands-off and proportionate in their response. Then they got a bollocking from Priti Patel and this is the result.
No one perceived an important interest in keeping Colston's statue standing, so it was easy to police with a light touch and let some protestors have their day. Its very different when people are protesting against something that the government wants.

Not all protests are equal.

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Fishnut » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:12 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:05 pm
No one perceived an important interest in keeping Colston's statue standing, so it was easy to police with a light touch and let some protestors have their day. Its very different when people are protesting against something that the government wants.

Not all protests are equal.
I have to disagree with that. People outside Bristol may not have perceived an important interest in keeping the statue standing but the whole reason it came down during a protest was because decades of attempts to do anything via legal channels had failed.
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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:30 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:12 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:05 pm
No one perceived an important interest in keeping Colston's statue standing, so it was easy to police with a light touch and let some protestors have their day. Its very different when people are protesting against something that the government wants.

Not all protests are equal.
I have to disagree with that. People outside Bristol may not have perceived an important interest in keeping the statue standing but the whole reason it came down during a protest was because decades of attempts to do anything via legal channels had failed.
That doesn’t mean that any interests were involved.

Whose power or wealth were being upheld by the statue remaining standing?

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Fishnut » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:37 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:30 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:12 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:05 pm
No one perceived an important interest in keeping Colston's statue standing, so it was easy to police with a light touch and let some protestors have their day. Its very different when people are protesting against something that the government wants.

Not all protests are equal.
I have to disagree with that. People outside Bristol may not have perceived an important interest in keeping the statue standing but the whole reason it came down during a protest was because decades of attempts to do anything via legal channels had failed.
That doesn’t mean that any interests were involved.

Whose power or wealth were being upheld by the statue remaining standing?
The Merchant Venturers, in particular, who may be a group you've never heard of but who seem to have a lot of power and influence in Bristol, and the status quo in general. If the statue wasn't important he would have been dealt with long before the protests. People have been working for literally decades to get something done about him but even a plaque providing context was seen as too controversial.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:46 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:37 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:30 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:12 pm


I have to disagree with that. People outside Bristol may not have perceived an important interest in keeping the statue standing but the whole reason it came down during a protest was because decades of attempts to do anything via legal channels had failed.
That doesn’t mean that any interests were involved.

Whose power or wealth were being upheld by the statue remaining standing?
The Merchant Venturers, in particular, who may be a group you've never heard of but who seem to have a lot of power and influence in Bristol, and the status quo in general. If the statue wasn't important he would have been dealt with long before the protests. People have been working for literally decades to get something done about him but even a plaque providing context was seen as too controversial.
I’m assuming the Merchant Venturers are a group people who run local businesses. They’ll certainly be able to influence council planning decisions. Get people on the right committees, buy lunches, promise charitable donations etc The bread and butter of local corrupt politics. They don’t need any material interests in the Colston statue. Just despising the people who want it removed is enough.

But do they have enough power to get the police to terrorise young women in their homes? As you wrote earlier, that likely came from the Home Secretary. Why would the Home Secretary care about some suspected protesters in Bristol?

I suggest that it’s different this time. The protesters are no longer going against some local business interests. By protesting against the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill the protesters are opposing the interests of the police and of ministers in London. They’re going up against people who do have lots of power. So the police act with a lot more brutality.

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Re: Reactions to protests

Post by jdc » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:25 pm

This Tory government is anti-protest generally, and particularly if it's a cause they're not keen on. Afaict it wasn't them who didn't care about XR or BLM protesters it was the police.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bo ... 58536.html
How politicians react to unexpected events often reveal a lot about them. The response to the Black Lives Matter (BLM) demonstrations in the UK, following the death of George Floyd, is one of them.

When Boris Johnson eventually spoke, he went Trumpian by saying last weekend’s anti-racism protests were “subverted by thuggery”. It was the Conservatives’ default position to make the issue one of law and order, a card that Priti Patel was desperate to play. True, she knows what it is like to be a victim of racism.

However, the home secretary overstepped the mark by intervening in what should have been an operational decision for the police on whether to stop Edward Colston’s statue being toppled in Bristol. Patel rebuked Andy Marsh, the chief constable of Avon and Somerset, telling him she wanted those who pulled down the statue to be prosecuted. Imagine the media and political storm if a Labour home secretary told police who to prosecute.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -activists
The prime minister has attacked the Extinction Rebellion activists protesting in London over the climate crisis, dismissing them as “uncooperative crusties” who should stop blocking the streets of the capital with their “heaving hemp-smelling bivouacs”.
https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/202 ... -protests/
As a government, we will not stand by and allow the livelihoods of hardworking people to be undermined by a minority using the pretence of tacking climate change to impose an extremist world view.
The Home Secretary and I are committed to learning the lessons of recent protests, and to ensuring that the police have the powers required to deal with the disruption caused by groups such as Extinction Rebellion and I will keep the tools available to tackle this behaviour under constant review.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 14392.html
A new crackdown on protests by Extinction Rebellion and Black Lives Matter is needed because of the “huge inconvenience” caused, a minister says.

The Police, Crime, Security and Courts Bill will impose new requirements to notify the police and to cut noise, as well as restricting the ability to inconvenience Parliament.

It comes after Priti Patel sparked controversy by attacking the “dreadful” Black Lives Matter demonstrations that swept the country last summer – at one point suggesting she did not support protests at all.

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Re: LSE PDF, Risk article

Post by jdc » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:39 pm

Remember when Thatcher exempted the police from her public sector cuts and gave them lots of shiny new toys before asking them to take on the unions and other enemies? Her Conservative government had a very good relationship with the police.
In office after 1979, the Thatcher Tories petted the police with
special treatment saving them from the attacks on the public sector
generally. They were exempt from the wide-ranging public
expenditure cuts, and from the New Public Management disciplines
that sought to achieve the ‘three E’s’ (efficiency, effectiveness and
economy).

In the face of a wave of urban riots and industrial
militancy unprecedented in postwar Britain, public order policing
was militarized. There were new toys for the boys in blue: Nato
helmets, shields, long truncheons, CS gas, plastic bullets, enhanced
legal powers, and a ring-fencing of ‘constabulary independence’ from
efforts by Labour controlled local authorities to question militaristic
policing (Reiner, 2010, pp. 85-88).
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67085/1/Reiner ... and%20.pdf


And now Boris, trying to rekindle the affair:
Prior to the vote, the Conservatives had made a series of policy announcements focusing on law and order including promising to recruit 20,000 new police officers, central funding for an increased Taser roll-out, a Police Covenant, the intention to double maximum sentences for those who attack officers (and, indeed, other Emergency Services workers) from 12 months to 24 months, as well as greater protection for police drivers and allowing special constables to be represented by the Federation.
https://www.risk-uk.com/police-federati ... -election/

New powers, new toys, get the police onside, and crush dissent.

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