I'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.headshot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 amMmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.TopBadger wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 amPerhaps I'm odd - but an image of a chain doesn't move my mind to thoughts about tying people up. If the Black Country flag featured an image of an actual shackle that would be different. But it doesn't.
Similarly - I don't find imagery of locks (a different subcomponent of what is required to restrain someone) offensive. Same goes for carabiners.
There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.
Flagshagging
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Re: Flagshagging
Re: Flagshagging
Yeah, I also don't buy the argument that because a 12 year-old kid, who was probably ignorant of the connection, designed it, it's free from criticism.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pmI'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.headshot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 amMmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.TopBadger wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:19 amPerhaps I'm odd - but an image of a chain doesn't move my mind to thoughts about tying people up. If the Black Country flag featured an image of an actual shackle that would be different. But it doesn't.
Similarly - I don't find imagery of locks (a different subcomponent of what is required to restrain someone) offensive. Same goes for carabiners.
There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.
You know what? That kid SHOULDN'T be ignorant of the connection. They should be taught about the connection between the British Empire, the industrial revolution and the slave trade. They should be the first people who see the chains and think "slaves".
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Re: Flagshagging
Even if it was designed by a 12 year old, presumably an adult was involved somewhere along the line?headshot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pmYeah, I also don't buy the argument that because a 12 year-old kid, who was probably ignorant of the connection, designed it, it's free from criticism.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pmI'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.headshot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 am
Mmmm, but the chains forged in The Black Country *actually shackled slaves*. It's not some distant symbolic connection I'm making. The actual chains that shackled thousands of actual slaves are the main emblem on the flag of the region.
There are many symbols of industry. They could have used many other emblems that didn't have actual links (pun intended) to the slave trade.
You know what? That kid SHOULDN'T be ignorant of the connection. They should be taught about the connection between the British Empire, the industrial revolution and the slave trade. They should be the first people who see the chains and think "slaves".
Re: Flagshagging
This the The Black Country, so the answer is "maybe?"Tessa K wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:50 pmEven if it was designed by a 12 year old, presumably an adult was involved somewhere along the line?headshot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:57 pmYeah, I also don't buy the argument that because a 12 year-old kid, who was probably ignorant of the connection, designed it, it's free from criticism.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:27 pm
I'm with you here. Kind of mind-boggling that some people aren't getting this.
You know what? That kid SHOULDN'T be ignorant of the connection. They should be taught about the connection between the British Empire, the industrial revolution and the slave trade. They should be the first people who see the chains and think "slaves".
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Re: Flagshagging
Pshaw!Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:36 pmYeah, England is still in denial about its role in slavery. The USA at least talks about it a lot. In the UK it might get a brief mention as an economic fact in a school history lesson, and then everyone tries not to think about it for the rest of their lives.
At school I learned all* about how the glorious British Empire lead by William Wilberforce stamped out the international slave trade driven by nothing more than Christian compassion and the Anglosphere's unshakeable commitment to liberty and freedom!
UK! UK! UK!
In a similar way presumably the ancestors of all those people in Liverpool, Glasgow, Newcastle and Manchester who just upped sticks and moved there from Ireland around 1850 were doing it out of some sort of inate Celtic wanderlust.
*TBF we never learnt about how the transatlantic slave trade got started (presumably it has always existed), or why so many British (and ex-British) colonies has such high slave populations, or why the British felt so culpable in the first place (presumably just out of pure British decency) or what happened to the former slave traders (dying of poverty in a workhouse I assume; it is not as if the UK government would give them massive compensation payments and then stick statues of them all over the place and, even two centuries later, still go out of their way to publicly defend what paragons of virtue these despicable ghouls were). But these are all mere details, I'm sure.
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
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Re: Flagshagging
I remember at junior school being shown images of how the slaves were packed onto the ships. I don't remember anything else we learnt about it but that image has always stayed with me.
Re: Flagshagging
We read a book called The Slave Dancer for Eng Lit O Level. It was fiction and I no longer recall anything about the plot but I do remember the vivid depictions of life and death on board ship. It was definitely the first and last that I learned anything at school beyond the basic outline of slavery was a thing and William Wilberforce was great.
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Re: Flagshagging
I'm so sorry.nezumi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 pmNot even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.
I had a girlfriend from Guisborough, so don't feel too bad about it.
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Re: Flagshagging
For a close-in smelly picture of slave trading I recommend the book "Flash for Freedom".
For the slave traders comeuppance see "Flashman and the Redskins" with a finish at Little Bighorn.
For a different view of Little Bighorn see Ousman Sow
In 1999, his African series and a large-scale tableau of the Battle of Little Bighorn, displayed on the Pont des Arts in Paris, attracted three million visitors.
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Re: Flagshagging
I thought surely not, a place as important as Middlesbrough must have its own flag.nezumi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 pmNot even exactly that either. Middlesbrough. It's in...Teesside and Cleveland and North Yorkshire and none of these at the same time.
It might do.
Here's a Google streetview screenshot of a mostly red flag flying from Middlesborough town hall:
It looks like that flag can also be seen on this Wiki image of the town hall.
The colours make sense as Middlesborough FC uses red and white.
Sometimes town halls fly other flags for various reasons (eg that of twin towns etc) but I doubt that would happen on both dates.
However, I can't find any other information about it. Even looks on the council web site. So my guess is that you have a flag. Which no one talks about.
Middlesbrough does have a coat of arms, which is blue, white and black.
It looks like the flag is the coat of arms on a red background.
Re: Flagshagging
Hooray! Thanks chopperWoodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:39 am
Middlesbrough does have a coat of arms, which is blue, white and black.
It looks like the flag is the coat of arms on a red background.
I live in a real place (all real places have flags obviously), and a flag is a flag, no matter how crap and half-arsed it is!
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Re: Flagshagging
Just catching up on this, but he's very wrong about Prince William's use of union flags. There are, in fact, two - one on the flag of New Zealand, and one next to it. So there. Ha.Vertigowooyay wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:09 pmLovely thread by Adam Rutherford showing how utterly idiotic and transparent the whole flagshagging nonsense is.
https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/stat ... 73668?s=20
(It's quite far down the page, just above the stormtrooper image)
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Re: Flagshagging
Anyway, my county of residence, Bedfordshire, has a flag with waves and shells on it, despite being doubly landlocked.
If truth is many-sided, mendacity is many-tongued
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Re: Flagshagging
El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:41 pmAnyway, my county of residence, Bedfordshire, has a flag with waves and shells on it, despite being doubly landlocked.
The shells come from the arms of the Dukes of Bedford
https://myblazon.com/heraldry/glossary/ ... %20spirit.Frequently appearing as an inanimate heraldic charge, the escallop shell initially served as an emblem for pilgrims. From this early usage derived its later employment in heraldry, as a sign of long voyages to distant lands. It symbolized piety, victory and warrior spirit.
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Re: Flagshagging
The waves just mean
Code: Select all
where name like '*ford'
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I didn't say there weren't reasons, just that no one at any point stepped back and said, "does anyone know how far away the coast is here?"
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Re: Flagshagging
You're sure they're not three ghosts?
The one in the middle looks a bit like the old caretaker to me.
The one in the middle looks a bit like the old caretaker to me.
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Re: Flagshagging
And I would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you pisci kids.
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Re: Flagshagging
That was an interesting wikiwalk!
When ^ mentioned the Dukes of Bedford, that rang a bell; I thought <fenland drainage> wasn't he... didn't he... so looked up '100ft drain' which is one of the massive drains that run through the area and is/used to be famous (along with many other names from childhood such as the Sixteen & Forty foot, the Nene, the Welland, the Ouse and the Relief Channel) because of the huge fishing matches that were held there and where the legendary Ivan Marks once reigned supreme. Unknown places only heard of whilst reading the Angling Times in the playground!
Anyway the hundred foot was indeed part of the massive land reclamation scheme and the Duke of Bedford of that time was the he that led the scheme, so hence its alternym of The New Bedford River, part of the Great Ouse as it runs through Cambridgeshire.
And hence its being on the flag thought I.
But hold!
So I had a look at wikibedfordcountyflag and its no where near as complicated as that, 'the wavy lines represent the Great Ouse'.
Hey ho & to work!
Happy days
TB
When ^ mentioned the Dukes of Bedford, that rang a bell; I thought <fenland drainage> wasn't he... didn't he... so looked up '100ft drain' which is one of the massive drains that run through the area and is/used to be famous (along with many other names from childhood such as the Sixteen & Forty foot, the Nene, the Welland, the Ouse and the Relief Channel) because of the huge fishing matches that were held there and where the legendary Ivan Marks once reigned supreme. Unknown places only heard of whilst reading the Angling Times in the playground!
Anyway the hundred foot was indeed part of the massive land reclamation scheme and the Duke of Bedford of that time was the he that led the scheme, so hence its alternym of The New Bedford River, part of the Great Ouse as it runs through Cambridgeshire.
And hence its being on the flag thought I.
But hold!
So I had a look at wikibedfordcountyflag and its no where near as complicated as that, 'the wavy lines represent the Great Ouse'.
Hey ho & to work!
Happy days
TB
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Re: Flagshagging
I just looked up the flag of this county, never having seen one, it manages to be both traditional and first registered in 2011.
https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/04/ ... hire-flag/
And it has some chain on it as well. But it’s clear what the use of the chain was.
https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/04/ ... hire-flag/
And it has some chain on it as well. But it’s clear what the use of the chain was.
Re: Flagshagging
The flag for Middlesex, where Staines was, is pretty cool in a Saxon way - a guy around the corner flies it occasionally, but he has flags for every day of the year.individualmember wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:00 amI just looked up the flag of this county, never having seen one, it manages to be both traditional and first registered in 2011.
https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/04/ ... hire-flag/
And it has some chain on it as well. But it’s clear what the use of the chain was.
The flag for Surrey, where Staines is, is a bit meh. Unless you are into chess...
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Re: Flagshagging
Coat of arms of Scunthorpe:
The five steel* links depict the original five parishes of Ashby, Brumby, Crosby, Frodingham and Scunthorpe that formed the town.
* - and also the iron and steel industries upon which the modern development of the town is based.
The five steel* links depict the original five parishes of Ashby, Brumby, Crosby, Frodingham and Scunthorpe that formed the town.
* - and also the iron and steel industries upon which the modern development of the town is based.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Flagshagging
An earlier version had a female pudenda prominently displayed in the centre and is referred to in the traditional 17th century folk ditty “Scunthorpe, why dost thou have my lady’s loins presented? Which knave is responsible? Hey nunny-yoni.” which I believe you can still hear stanzas of lustily sang at sporting contests.
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
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Re: Flagshagging
The Heavens Reflect Our ...Little waster wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:03 amAn earlier version had a female pudenda prominently displayed in the centre and is referred to in the traditional 17th century folk ditty “Scunthorpe, why dost thou have my lady’s loins presented? Which knave is responsible? Hey nunny-yoni.” which I believe you can still hear stanzas of lustily sang at sporting contests.
Nope, to easy; and well beyond WM territory.
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Re: Flagshagging
Ooh, the shells are gryphea, a common fossil in the Jurassic strata, which includes the iron stone layer